The "Oberon/Corwin + PCs" campaign

[JongWK]

I haven't read all the novels, so bear with me if this is already answered in them: Why are we sure that the Patterns have separate minds?

[gabriel_ss4u]

Well, Random is the rightful king of the Pattern and its shadows, including Corwin's pattern, unless they want to do a rebellion like Oberon and Dworkin did toward Chaos. There is really matter for a "history repeats itself" theme where the elder Amberite would exist with as much a distance as do Chaosian families in a regular setting (maybe each Amberite even founded a House and regularly sends agents to decipher Corwin and Merlin's plans)

Interesting and intriguing idea.

i NEVER SAW cORWIN'S pATTERN AS A REFLECTION OF THE 1ST pATTERN.

[Ivanhoe]

I mean that the shadow where Corwin's Pattern has been traced is a part of Amber's realm. They are linked and different in the same way that Amber and the Courts are linked : Amber was probably something akin to a primal plane when the Pattern was traced. Saying it is part of its realm is just a matter of interpretation.

[gabriel_ss4u]

Whether it matters that Corwin's Pattern was drawn in territory already under the control of Dworkin's Pattern, I'm not sure.

It was???

I thought Corwin was far past Ygg at the point he drew it...
on to my novels, must check this for myself.
IMC it is on the other side of Ygg closer to Chaos.
Yes... he planted the branch from Ygg there on his journy, so it is IMO, it is not drawn in territory truely controlled by Amber's Pattern.

though i'll go re-read now....

[Ivanhoe]

I think we consider that after the war against Chaos, all shadows are considered to be Amber's jurisdiction.

[jibbajibba]

My take would be that planting the branch of Ygg makes the sahdow 'Primal' Ygg being a real thing so you create a new focus point.

There are some obvious issues though.
Chaosites who were not initiates of The Pattern were able to traverse shadows that were created by it. Therefore being an initiate of a pattern is not a prerequisite for access to the shadows it creates.
From this we can deduce that Amberites could access Corwin's shadows unless the multiverse now looks like a pair of trousers with chaos at one end and the two patterns at the end of each leg. In this case perhaps Dworkin's pattern users are actively barred from that 'leg'. However, this seems unlikely as it would appear that you need no sort of initiation to access Corwin's pattern itself and obviously the creator of the universe holds Dworkin's Pattern-mark. So if holding one image isn't a barrier and holding the other isn;t a pre-requisite Then I woudl think logically anyone that can traverse Shadow can access the shadows of Corwin's pattern (if indeed there are new shadows rather than just a reinforcement of order across the exant ones.)

More problematic for me is the concept that the Pattern and the Logrus are engaged in a war older than time. Since Dowkin drew the Pattern prior to that there was no Pattern. If we assume that the JoJ contains a higher level Pattern that is the 'True' source and that Dworkin's pattern is just a manifestation of it, which would be the logical stance, then Corwin's pattern is likewise a manifestation. The only battle that could have been raging from before Dworkin built his pattern is the one between the Logrus and the Higher level Pattern. In this case Corwin's pattern is direclty allied to Dworkin's.

Stepping back further if we assume that the Serpent and the Unicorn are primal forces, (after all the serpent's eye contained the pattern, perhaps the Unicorn's eye contains the Logrus...a ying yang thing) then again they exist at a level above Instances of pattern so again it seems that the patterns are allied and under the dominion of the Unicorn.

An other option would be that the relationship between the Unicorn and the patterns is akin to that of Oberon to his children. So the Pattern's are all in competition for Power but the unicorn doesn't side with either pattern preferring for them to work out their own issues. The Unicorn only becomes directly involved in opposing the Serpent.

The idea tha the patterns are allied is hinted at in the suggestion that the balance of the universe has been shifted toward Law because of the creation of a new pattern. It suggests antagonism vs the Logrus but not tension between the 2 patterns.

[gabriel_ss4u]

In the prelude to Trumps of doom, I beleive RZ alludes to the idea that a Logrus intiate finds his way through the Logrus, and holds his 'path' or 'pattern' of that path in his mind, therfore it is the symbol of his 'way' through the everchanging path of the universe, and perhaps the 'pattern' of the JoJ is the serpent's 'shortcut' or ultimate path through it, which would in some way, perhaps hold sway over it, as does Order.

Interesting theories Jibba, you make me think more.

[RPGPundit]

I think it is very much a yin/yang kind of thing, where the pattern was originally something static taken from the chaos of the Dragon, a sundering of the universe as it was before, into something new.
And since time (in this new universe) effectively only began with the creation of the Pattern (and thus, shadow), effectively speaking the two forces have been at war since at least the beginning of time.

Though that too may not be the whole story; the Unicorn was there too, before the Pattern was made, and it may imply that this "old universe" had its own pantheon of forces; the Unicorn and the Dragon may only have been two of them; the others may be connected to the Spikards, obviously, and you could expand that to a whole shitload of interesting things.

RPGPundit

[Ivanhoe]

Here is one theory :

What do you need to create a major power ? I would say that it requires :
- a powerful item (JoJ, spikards, something like that)
- an abstract concept to be the embodiement of (Order, Chaos, Balance)
- a place where power has been binded : Pattern, Logrus, Ygg
- an avatar : the Unicorn, the Serpent, Ygg itself

If only one thing is missing, the Powers That Be usually make it easier to find it.

[gabriel_ss4u]

nice and concise, I like it Ivanhoe.
I see the pantheon as being that locked away 'Titans' sort of Crew that the Serpent & the Unicorn were a part of or came from.
I know the Weir are Eric's creatures, but I always looked as the Weirmonken as the ancient shapeshifters who spawned the Lords of Chaos and worshiped the Lords of Entropy.
That would lead to the Abyss power spoke of the major powers wheel.