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You Choose #2: Trusting Brand

Started by Syzygy, July 14, 2007, 10:34:11 PM

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jibbajibba

Quote from: gabriel_ss4u;307145Not trying to compare Brand to ha-satan, my corolation was pertaining to the 'temptation' of such a situation dealing with 'enhancing your awareness by divine means through a deal-maker/tempter'.
But if attempting to avoid religion is bringing up the christ... you're ignoring your own warnings moritheil.
However you brought up a good thought in your statement, What if the WAS a price...
What if the price was high?
Any ideas?

He is quite a good match. Son of a god/emperor that createed the universe (or at least inherited the creation) rebels against the dogmatic requirement to obey and not question said authority gets corrupted by power and attempts to recreate the wolrd in his own image.. sounds like a pretty good match to me. And he even has the core attribute of seeming fairer whilst feeling fouler a must for all satan wannabes
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Lady Vivamus

Quote from: Croaker;307229Living an ordinary, human life would probably be best.
I'm not sure I could choose an ordinary human life, when something else was offered. To be told-- no, shown!-- that everything I have ever known, even the very world in which I exist, is a pale imitation of reality, a mere Shadow... and then to turn away from a man offering to give me something more? I don't think I could. I would go along with Brand no matter what he offered. I might see the moral reasons not to... but the lure of something more would be too great.

boulet

Lady Vivamus is damn right. Julia wasn't even offered the beginning of a good deal. Merlin just teased her with a spoon full of awesome and it was a life changing experience. She couldn't be content with down to earth reality anymore. I couldn't either.

Spike

Which is where the OP's question differs from more traditional Faustian bargains:

In the traditional Faustian Bargain, the power offered is over the world the 'character' exists in. Lucifer never offers up the secrets of creation, the powers of heaven and hell, etc... all he does is offer shortcuts to the things that are already available... more or less.

That is why the question is merely simplified not dismissed.  Knowing that you are dealing with an untrustworthy, and genuinely unsavory person do you still accept?

As such: If the Devil offers you gold, you are giving up your place in heaven for a little money... a foolish bargain. But if the Devil instead offered an apotheosis, the transition from mortal to immortal, though on the 'wrong side'... is the bargain still as foolish?  Can we even evaluate it using the conventional wisdom?  Surely the source of the transformation is less important than what you do with it... or don't do with it.
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Croaker

Quote from: Lady Vivamus;307287I'm not sure I could choose an ordinary human life, when something else was offered. To be told-- no, shown!-- that everything I have ever known, even the very world in which I exist, is a pale imitation of reality, a mere Shadow... and then to turn away from a man offering to give me something more? I don't think I could. I would go along with Brand no matter what he offered. I might see the moral reasons not to... but the lure of something more would be too great.
That's an amberite view.

But your pains, loves, friends and all are real to you.

Power might be tempting, but, to what end?

This is not a question of moral reasons, just... I prefer to be a happy ordinary human, with friends and loved ones, than a solitary demigod.
Quote from: Spike;307298But if the Devil instead offered an apotheosis, the transition from mortal to immortal, though on the 'wrong side'... is the bargain still as foolish?
Be it god or the devil, I don't care, I'm not interested in living forever at all, especially to be beholden to a all-powerful figure. And if it is to fight a war, this is even less interesting. I'd probably end up as another lucifer, be it to god or lucifer himself :lol:
 

Lady Vivamus

Quote from: Croaker;307306That's an amberite view.
Thank you. :D

gabriel_ss4u

Quote from: Spike;307298In the traditional Faustian Bargain, the power offered is over the world the 'character' exists in. Lucifer never offers up the secrets of creation, the powers of heaven and hell, etc... all he does is offer shortcuts to the things that are already available... more or less.

Hmmm... whadya got there? King James version or something?

Well, the serpent states; Your eyes will be open and you will be like God, (knowing good and evil).

now... eyes being opened and being like god to me is kinda like the secrets of creation, making them from unto-like an animal to a being of self-awareness.

Though there is no price stated besides the obvious one that is known, ("or you will die" - stating they may have been immortal-like in the beginning), it is known that such an evil/self-serving deal-maker will have a price or effect of which you will rarely ever know about like Croaker stated.

Still, be that as it may, as Lady Vivamus put it, I too could not turn my back on such an offer. Though I like myself, my friends and family, my life...   the promise of "opening mine eyes to the wonders of creation" and teaching me would not be able to be passed up.
("I always KNEW I was meant for something special!")
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Lady Vivamus

Quote from: Croaker;307306That's an amberite view.

But your pains, loves, friends and all are real to you.

Power might be tempting, but, to what end?

This is not a question of moral reasons, just... I prefer to be a happy ordinary human, with friends and loved ones, than a solitary demigod.
Adding a little something more to my response: what part of Brand's offer makes you think you could not have your friends or family? He is offering to teach you the Art of Trump, nothing more. If all you wanted was to learn the Art, you could do that, and then return home. Have all the access to power and Shadow that the Art would give you, and go home again. I don't know that I would; I love my family, but if given a chance to go live in Amber... or really, any one of a number of Shadows I can think of off the top of my head... I'd go. But that doesn't mean that you'd have to.

Or, heaven forbid, you could make a set of Trumps for your family and friends so you could all be in communication all the time... that is one of the powers you would have at your disposal after Brand's lessons. Plus, you could make Trump for any place you wanted to go, even home!

My ramblings aside, my point is that the choice here is not necessarily one or the other.

jibbajibba

Quote from: Lady Vivamus;307443Adding a little something more to my response: what part of Brand's offer makes you think you could not have your friends or family? He is offering to teach you the Art of Trump, nothing more. If all you wanted was to learn the Art, you could do that, and then return home. Have all the access to power and Shadow that the Art would give you, and go home again. I don't know that I would; I love my family, but if given a chance to go live in Amber... or really, any one of a number of Shadows I can think of off the top of my head... I'd go. But that doesn't mean that you'd have to.

Or, heaven forbid, you could make a set of Trumps for your family and friends so you could all be in communication all the time... that is one of the powers you would have at your disposal after Brand's lessons. Plus, you could make Trump for any place you wanted to go, even home!

My ramblings aside, my point is that the choice here is not necessarily one or the other.

Indeed its not a typical Faustian bargain '50 years of worldly power and wealth in return for you immortal soul'. However, I am sure that there is a price to be paid to learn even a little of Dworkin's Lore :-)
Me, I figure that for a little skin in the game I would take a punt. Brand has on more than on occassion shown himself to be a little dim and if he exists there are plenty of other Players out there who could use a trump artist. Mind you my drawing is crap so he would have to let me use photoshop ....
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Spike

Quote from: gabriel_ss4u;307377Hmmm... whadya got there? King James version or something?
The bible is not exactly replete with explicit mentions of the devil, much less scenes of actual bargains, so we are working, more or less, from the body of apocrypha and mythology that surrounds it.

QuoteWell, the serpent states; Your eyes will be open and you will be like God, (knowing good and evil).

Better theologians than us have debated the nature of the serpent in that tale.  Morever: The serpent is not actually providing anything but tempting Eve into taking for herself.  Brand, in the OP isn't suggesting you teach yourself Trump but offering to teach something you literally can not achieve on your own.

Quotenow... eyes being opened and being like god to me is kinda like the secrets of creation, making them from unto-like an animal to a being of self-awareness.

Sure its a step on the way, self awareness and all that, but it doesn't actually provide any meaningful power. Again, back to the OP: The presence of Brand in your living room provides a form of self awareness that you are 'less real' than you previously believed, you've bitten the metaphorical fruit.  What is being offered is the ability to transition from your awareness of being less than real to actually becoming More Real.

QuoteThough there is no price stated besides the obvious one that is known, ("or you will die" - stating they may have been immortal-like in the beginning), it is known that such an evil/self-serving deal-maker will have a price or effect of which you will rarely ever know about like Croaker stated.

Again: There is no bargain being offered, only a temptation to do that which they were warned not to do.  Brand is offering a bargain, though the exact price is hidden from us, thus we must compare it to actual bargains rather than temptations (or am I missing some divine injunction against shadow dwellers learning Trump?)


QuoteStill, be that as it may, as Lady Vivamus put it, I too could not turn my back on such an offer. Though I like myself, my friends and family, my life...   the promise of "opening mine eyes to the wonders of creation" and teaching me would not be able to be passed up.
("I always KNEW I was meant for something special!")

I haven't moralized at all here, merely restated the nature of the offer to remove the 'fulfillment of fantasy' angle.  The appeal of the offer changes only slightly.

To whit: Most posters seem to suggest that they would take the deal because they'd get to hobknob with the amberites and see all the cool sights presented in the books.

As a neutral observer of the thread I've avoided taking a stance, but since I've been assigned the role of unwanted Judge here, let me dispel that quickly: I could care less about meeting Amberites or Chaos dwellers, of visiting 'Amber' as presented or any of the 'kewl shit' in the books.  Entertaining reading but not such that I'd actually prefer to visit there over other places (I reserve that for the Star Wars universe, against my better judgement...), but I'd still take the offer.   A contented ordinary life would never satisfy knowing that it was less real than what I'd been offered, regardless of the source.  Better to be a bit player in the real world than a king in the Theatre, if you will.
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gabriel_ss4u

Quote from: Spike;307490The bible is not exactly replete with explicit mentions of the devil, much less scenes of actual bargains, so we are working, more or less, from the body of apocrypha and mythology that surrounds it.

(based upon the actual writings... obviously. Be they from Bible or other ancient text. No one says there are many examples.)

QuoteBetter theologians than us have debated the nature of the serpent in that tale.  Morever: The serpent is not actually providing anything but tempting Eve into taking for herself.  Brand, in the OP isn't suggesting you teach yourself Trump but offering to teach something you literally can not achieve on your own.

(I enjoy cross-comparative theology, but as you stated... best not for here... so why persist?)

QuoteSure its a step on the way, self awareness and all that, but it doesn't actually provide any meaningful power. Again, back to the OP: The presence of Brand in your living room provides a form of self awareness that you are 'less real' than you previously believed, you've bitten the metaphorical fruit.  What is being offered is the ability to transition from your awareness of being less than real to actually becoming More Real.

(You think self-awareness is not meaningful compared to sweet obliviousness? I disagree, merely being in the presence of Brand does nbot impart such awareness, it may be the 1st step to it... but far from it in totality. Truly, there is no guarantee of even becoming more real. Do you think Melvin was any more real??? What is being offered is knowledge & skill, perhaps the chance to become more real.)

QuoteAgain: There is no bargain being offered, only a temptation to do that which they were warned not to do.  Brand is offering a bargain, though the exact price is hidden from us, thus we must compare it to actual bargains rather than temptations (or am I missing some divine injunction against shadow dwellers learning Trump?)

(But, there is knowledge of what doing so will grant. so then what bargainer are you suggesting?)

QuoteI haven't moralized at all here, merely restated the nature of the offer to remove the 'fulfillment of fantasy' angle.  The appeal of the offer changes only slightly.
To whit: Most posters seem to suggest that they would take the deal because they'd get to hobknob with the amberites and see all the cool sights presented in the books.

I didn't notice that much... hobknob? did I miss it? My goal would be to stay farrrr away from those powerful beings, least I become more a pawn in their game)

QuoteAs a neutral observer of the thread I've avoided taking a stance, but since I've been assigned the role of unwanted Judge here, let me dispel that quickly: I could care less about meeting Amberites or Chaos dwellers, of visiting 'Amber' as presented or any of the 'kewl shit' in the books.  Entertaining reading but not such that I'd actually prefer to visit there over other places (I reserve that for the Star Wars universe, against my better judgement...), but I'd still take the offer.   A contented ordinary life would never satisfy knowing that it was less real than what I'd been offered, regardless of the source.  Better to be a bit player in the real world than a king in the Theatre, if you will.

a neutral observer observes... a neutral commenter comments, and a neutral opinionator tends to critique... thanks for your comment. finally)
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Narf the Mouse

I shoot Brand under the table. I then rest content that a 'Shadow' has defeated 'Reality' - And a threat to all life is gone.
The main problem with government is the difficulty of pressing charges against its directors.

Given a choice of two out of three M&Ms, the human brain subconsciously tries to justify the two M&Ms chosen as being superior to the M&M not chosen.

Croaker

Quote from: Spike;307490What is being offered is the ability to transition from your awareness of being less than real to actually becoming More Real.
You are already real. You can already strangle an amberite (at least in theory) or kill him with a shadow knife, his death will be as real as if he had been strangled by any of his real brothers and sisters.
Melman, Julia, were real enough for merlin. What posed problem were not that they were shadow people, but their power level. And all these women Oberon married. Some came from shadow, even if only Golden Circle shadows.

IMO, saying shadow people are not real is a way the amberites justify to themselves doing what they want with them.
 

moritheil

Quote from: Croaker;307588IMO, saying shadow people are not real is a way the amberites justify to themselves doing what they want with them.

There exists a difference between the practical awareness that there are unlikely to be consequences for a given act, and the concept of moral rightness.  I would say that "people are not real" is a practical argument: they aren't able to retaliate.  Amberites are, as Corwin notes, practical people.

"We'll never pass this way again in a lifetime," notes Random as he attempts to justify shooting someone in an act of road rage.  This is essentially an amoral argument: rather than address the rightness or wrongness of the issue, he addresses the practical consequences.  Since there basically are none, arguments of moral rightness or wrongness are sophistry.

It is quite possible that the average Amberite sees himself as beyond good and evil.

moritheil

Quote from: gabriel_ss4u;307145But if attempting to avoid religion is bringing up the christ... you're ignoring your own warnings moritheil.

I was noting that we were about to proceed down a slippery slope, and then proceeding for the sake of continuing the conversation.  Please read that as, "But if you insist on using religion, I'll compare this deal, as originally written, to Christ's offer rather than to the Devil's offer."

QuoteHowever you brought up a good thought in your statement, What if the WAS a price...
What if the price was high?
Any ideas?

Well, how steep a price is 'high?'  What would it correspond to?  I suspect the answer would vary for each person.