Would you describe Amber's Mechanics as "Point-buy"?

[RPGPundit]

That's the way I presented it to players, but I'm at loss to point at Zelazny or Wujcik for this. I mean Luke and Merlin are badass athletes but still in the realm of humanly possible. I think the big gap was visible in the numbers for me (-25, -10, 0) but also the rule book insistence that characters with a Human trait are in big trouble if entering conflict with Amber ranked characters.

The thing is, I don't think you can think of it in terms of the point values representing some kind of equivalent scale.  They don't in any other context, the ranks are ranks, they aren't about the  points.

So I think that the points below Amber rank are meant for the sake of game balance; the difference between Amber and Chaos isn't necessarily "10 points" in terms of power level, because that's technically meaningless.  

Or, to explain it another way, you get 10 points if you go down to chaos rank, but that's not necessarily what its worth, nor is human rank worth 25 points.  You're making a devil's bargain; the points you gain are not proportionate to the cost in terms of power lost.

RPGPundit

[jibbajibba]

The thing is, I don't think you can think of it in terms of the point values representing some kind of equivalent scale.  They don't in any other context, the ranks are ranks, they aren't about the  points.

So I think that the points below Amber rank are meant for the sake of game balance; the difference between Amber and Chaos isn't necessarily "10 points" in terms of power level, because that's technically meaningless.  

Or, to explain it another way, you get 10 points if you go down to chaos rank, but that's not necessarily what its worth, nor is human rank worth 25 points.  You're making a devil's bargain; the points you gain are not proportionate to the cost in terms of power lost.

RPGPundit

That wasn't Boulet's point (if I may speak for him for a moment ) . He is saying that Amberites do not appear to be vastly superior to humans in a number of areas. The points are irrelevant.
I argued that the top ranked Amberites are very close (Bleys, Corwin, Eric at fencing for example) and far ahead of normal people. Boulet pointed out that in fact the Amberites are not so far ahead of mortals. His example of the athletic skills of Merlin and Luke is a great example. If you extend the logic of Amberites strength and endurance then both of them should be far superior to an olympic athelete but they aren't they are depicted as being good College atheletes. The same can be said for most of the encounters between Amerites and 'lesser' folks.
I tend to agree with him.

[boulet]

I agree about the Faustian bargain Pundit. I always warn the players that they will have a major vulnerability that can't be compensated, even with crazy badass powers and powerful gizmos.

To me the conversation is complicated by the fact that each trait has its quirks.

Strength: Really differentiates Amberites, Chaosians and shadow dwellers. Flipping a car is easy for Amberites. Gerard really feels beyond human. But OTOH Luke and Merlin are only top notch athletes.

Endurance: This one is even more of contrast when comparing with shadow people. Corwin recovering his sight a few months after his eyes were burnt exemplifies that.

Warfare: Here it's more nuanced. Sure Benedict is the best fencer and general. That's a given. But he and his brothers still find value in studying martial stuff in shadow. Which hints at a big difference here: one can learn and become better at warfare. Shadow dwellers are less good on average for sure but Amberites can still learn from them.

Psyche: This is mixed bags. Shadow peepz are weak but once in a while they can be impressive. Take Jasra for instance.

[warp9]

Actually that is an excellent point I was thinking about Strength there and hefting the merc but you are right Luke and Merle are pretty much top end US collage runners but not olympic class.

From reading the Corwin series I got the impression that he was pretty much in the super human range.

Whereas, in the second series, Merlin competed with Luke a number of times on Shadow-Earth, without realizing that he was competing against an Amberite. So, from that, I got the impression that Amberites were more like really tough-strong humans.

However, your statement about Luke and Merlin not being Olympic class is incorrect. Consider the following lines from Sign of Chaos: (Merlin talking to Jasra about Luke, after he has freed her from being a coat rack)

   "But you have to admit he did well in that track meet against UCLA in his sophomore year," I said, not to let her put him down completely. "A certain amount of that comes from the more vigorous side of life."

She smiled and accepted the drink.

"Yes. He broke a world record that day. I can still see him passing over the final hurdle."

"You were there?"

If he is breaking world records, he is clearly in Olympic class. But I agree with you that it did not seem like they were vastly superior to the best humans.

[jibbajibba]

From reading the Corwin series I got the impression that he was pretty much in the super human range.

Whereas, in the second series, Merlin competed with Luke a number of times on Shadow-Earth, without realizing that he was competing against an Amberite. So, from that, I got the impression that Amberites were more like really tough-strong humans.

However, your statement about Luke and Merlin not being Olympic class is incorrect. Consider the following lines from Sign of Chaos: (Merlin talking to Jasra about Luke, after he has freed her from being a coat rack)

   "But you have to admit he did well in that track meet against UCLA in his sophomore year," I said, not to let her put him down completely. "A certain amount of that comes from the more vigorous side of life."

She smiled and accepted the drink.

"Yes. He broke a world record that day. I can still see him passing over the final hurdle."

"You were there?"

If he is breaking world records, he is clearly in Olympic class. But I agree with you that it did not seem like they were vastly superior to the best humans.

Nice link
I remembered they went to track meets but must have forgotten a world record was broken (although prolly an under 21 record or some such) .

[daniel_ream]

One of the biggest argument topics on the Amber mailing list back in the day was whether the Scions of Amber were really as powerful as Wujcik depicted them.

Going purely by the text of the Amber novels and stories, the Scions of Amber just plain are not as superhuman as all that.  Even the much-ballyhooed lifting of the car scene has a line that precedes it where Corwin states that something was funny about the gravity.

[RPGPundit]

I think this is clearly a case where you have to treat the two Ambers as slightly different; I don't argue that Wujcik didn't exaggerate the power-level, though perhaps not as much as some would like to claim.  But this has never bothered me; Wujcik's Amber is his own, with a different level of intensity.  Fortunately, the very nature of how attributes are handled in the game allow the GM to set the power level he wants.

In fact, in my upcoming Lords of Olympus game, I talk about that very thing, explaining how a GM should set the concepts of power-level he wants for his characters.

RPGPundit

[daniel_ream]

But this has never bothered me; Wujcik's Amber is his own, with a different level of intensity.

The problem with that is many players are unfamiliar with the source material, so they end up with an odd mental mixture of what the game says combined with what the books say, and that can lead to assumption clash.

In fact, in my upcoming Lords of Olympus game, I talk about that very thing, explaining how a GM should set the concepts of power-level he wants for his characters.

Much as I love Zelazny's work, I think divorcing the game from any pre-existing literary setting will help and having it explicitly spelled out even more so.

This thing going to see print any time soon?

[RPGPundit]

Much as I love Zelazny's work, I think divorcing the game from any pre-existing literary setting will help and having it explicitly spelled out even more so.

This thing going to see print any time soon?

I really freaking hope so; on both counts.

RPGPundit

[charis]

Going purely by the text of the Amber novels and stories, the Scions of Amber just plain are not as superhuman as all that. Even the much-ballyhooed lifting of the car scene has a line that precedes it where Corwin states that something was funny about the gravity.

He'd said something about lesser gravitation, but I didn't feel that light. I knew I was strong, but I had my doubts about being able to raise the rear end of a Mercedes. ~Corwin

Never noticed that before.

[daniel_ream]

It's a pity the old Amber mailing list archives aren't around any more, as pretty much every ambiguous sentence in all ten books had been hashed over a million times.

Christ, I still remember the arguments over what colour Flora's hair was.

[greylond]

It's a pity the old Amber mailing list archives aren't around any more,...

uhm.... I don't suppose that you know that all the old newsgroup archives are part of Google Groups?...

http://groups.google.com

[boulet]

Christ, I still remember the arguments over what colour Flora's hair was.

What was the most common opinion about Flora's hair color? (I like gossips)

[daniel_ream]

uhm.... I don't suppose that you know that all the old newsgroup archives are part of Google Groups?

Newsgroups and mailing lists are not the same thing.

[daniel_ream]

What was the most common opinion about Flora's hair color? (I like gossips)

There was no consensus (obviously) just a bunch of wanking about whether "She had changed her hair, I wasn't sure if I liked it" meant change of cut or colour, and what colour the outer edge of a candle flame in a dark room is, and BLAH BLAH BLAH ZZZZZZZZ......

She's blonde.  If and when the fate of the entire multiverse turns on what colour her hair is, I'll re-examine the issue.