Would you describe Amber's Mechanics as "Point-buy"?

[RPGPundit]

I would not.  There is enough difference involved in the attribute auction that it is not justified to call it that.

RPGPundit

[Xanador]

Yes it's point buy. The auction doesn't change that in any fundamental way because you don't have to bid.

Plus you can skip the auction altogether. I realize this is akin to heresy from your perspective but there it is.

[Tolknor]

It would seem to be though that term is new to me.  I've been out of gaming for awhile.  The auction seems to moderate how points are bought.

[Croaker]

The entire system is point-buy, save maybe for the auction:

- If, past the auction, you compare points instead of ranks, the auction is point buy too: A given number of points give you a fixed result, always the same: 20 points in an attribute is gonna give you the same power level whatever the game.

- If you drop points past the auction and instead use ranks, it isn't point-buy, as the points you invest won't give the same result from game to game: 20 points in psyche may be a lot and powerful in one game, very little and weak in another

[jibbajibba]

The entire system is point-buy, save maybe for the auction:

- If, past the auction, you compare points instead of ranks, the auction is point buy too: A given number of points give you a fixed result, always the same: 20 points in an attribute is gonna give you the same power level whatever the game.

- If you drop points past the auction and instead use ranks, it isn't point-buy, as the points you invest won't give the same result from game to game: 20 points in psyche may be a lot and powerful in one game, very little and weak in another

It was prolly my post int eh other thread that triggered this.

I think it is point buy even in a ranks only situation. What clouds the picture is Amber's key idea about competition.

So in Gurps I want to build a strong fighter So I give him points in Strength buy some skills etc etc

In amber I do exactly the same thing. There is no difference except that the ammount I can spend in strength is open ended and in Amber terms I think about my strength in relation to my peers.
If Gurps allowed open ended stats then there woudl be no difference at all.

So I will give you an example . I decide to play Orin he will have 25 Str, 10 End, A Psyche aand 10 Warfare. He will have Pattern a sword and 2 points of good stuff.

It doesn't actually matter that other players have 30, 40 and 50 Strength because that doesn't make my PC weaker in relation to the humans or the Chaosites they might face It only makes them weaker in relation to their peers. Yes the fact that the major demon baddy has been ranked 2= to the PCs in warfare makes a very slight difference but its trivial . Its akin to a D&D character having 18(34%) strength compared to another PC having 18(67%). The guy can still roll a chevy onto its roof or whatever. The base character hasn't changed. Exactly the same thing can happen in base point buy.. unless you spend all your points in one stat/skill you can not guarentee you be the best guy in the party at that skill.

[Malleus Arianorum]

There is no difference except that the ammount I can spend in strength is open ended and in Amber terms I think about my strength in relation to my peers.

I agree with you that there are only a few differences, but I think they're quite important. The Amber bidding war is aptly named -- no plan survives contact with it.
 
To continue your example, suppose that your foe takes the bidding war seriously.
 
Q: How many points does it cost him to outbid you in every stat?
A: He's got a superior character for the princely sum of four points.
 
FOUR POINTS! What are you gonna buy with four points? A deadly damage sword? A fast-as-a-car horse? Your own personal shadow? Four points of good stuff? In another game you could hope for a lucky roll in game of dice, but Amber is diceless. You could blame the unfair overpoweredness in game of point-buy, but Amber is a bidding war.

[jibbajibba]

I agree with you that there are only a few differences, but I think they're quite important. The Amber bidding war is aptly named -- no plan survives contact with it.
 
To continue your example, suppose that your foe takes the bidding war seriously.
 
Q: How many points does it cost him to outbid you in every stat?
A: He's got a superior character for the princely sum of four points.
 
FOUR POINTS! What are you gonna buy with four points? A deadly damage sword? A fast-as-a-car horse? Your own personal shadow? Four points of good stuff? In another game you could hope for a lucky roll in game of dice, but Amber is diceless. You could blame the unfair overpoweredness in game of point-buy, but Amber is a bidding war.

But you make several assumptions. The first is that this brother will be your enemy the second is that they realise you are their enemy. The last is that you ever attack your brother from the front.

Take the books them selves Random wins he is mediocre in every stat and has no powers. Benedict gets beaten by both corwin and brand.

And even then its no different to another point buy game if you compare yourself to the rest of the party as opposed to the 'plot'

Look I mean it as no insult I think the auction is the best chargen system ever but it's still point buy

[RPGPundit]

Yes it's point buy. The auction doesn't change that in any fundamental way because you don't have to bid.

Plus you can skip the auction altogether. I realize this is akin to heresy from your perspective but there it is.

It is indeed heresy from my perspective.  Anyways, again, if you do have an auction but don't bid, then you're bound to buying the pre-established ranks.  You could still call that "point-buy", I guess, but its a point-buy where you don't know, until after the auction is done, what the costs are going to be for each rank (unlike say a gurps-like game where you know that  you have to spend 10 points for every level of Intelligence you want your character to have).

RPGPundit

[RPGPundit]

The entire system is point-buy, save maybe for the auction:

- If, past the auction, you compare points instead of ranks, the auction is point buy too: A given number of points give you a fixed result, always the same: 20 points in an attribute is gonna give you the same power level whatever the game.

- If you drop points past the auction and instead use ranks, it isn't point-buy, as the points you invest won't give the same result from game to game: 20 points in psyche may be a lot and powerful in one game, very little and weak in another

That's right, and I will emphasize once again that Amber as it is intended to be run, the system that Wujcik designed, is based on RANKS, not "points".

RPGPundit

[greylond]

But you buy Ranks using Points. Amber is "Point Buy", you just don't know how many points you have to spend for certain ranks until after the first Auction...

And your Attributes are the ONLY thing you don't know the cost. Everything else Powers, Spells, Items, etc, is Classic Point Buy...

[two_fishes]

But you buy Ranks using Points. Amber is "Point Buy", you just don't know how many points you have to spend for certain ranks until after the first Auction... .

Bingo. You spend a limited resource to build your character. It's point buy. In Amber you buy ranks. The fact that the cost of the ranks can change from game to game does not change the fundamental nature of the game. What a silly question.

[daniel_ream]

I think it's arguable whether the Auction is, but the rest of the game (Powers, Shadows, Creatures, Allies, etc) absolutely is a point buy system.  One of my biggest headaches of the game was watching how buying the rest of their character's doodads encouraged the usual minmaxing point wank.

[Croaker]

Jibba, 2 simple examples, if I may, comparing you and your brother. Let's assume that, in both cases, he is 1 rank above you, so, in a ranks-based system, the 2 exemples are equivalent.

- You've got Strenght 20, your brother 24. If comparing points, this is minor, he's only 20% better.
- You've got Strength 20, your brother 30. If comparing points, this is major, he is 50% better.

To take back your comparison with Gurps, you could say that:
- Compare points: If 1 character spends 45 points in Intelligence and another in dex, they both know they'll get a stat of 14, which is good.
- Compare ranks: The first character could end up with a 18 in intelligence (1st), the second could end up with 11 in dex (last rank).

IMO, point-buy = predictable. You know what you get at what cost. Using bidding + ranks throws that to the window, while bidding or not, using points keeps that.

This is not to say point-buy is bad. I actually quite like it, and hate with a fury systems in which I have to roll stats and skills (despite a long loved Stormbringer and Cthulhu campain)

[two_fishes]

I would argue that unpredictable point buy is still a form of point buy.

[boulet]

I've seen enough auctions where a few players went crazy (usually on Psyche and Warfare) to see how it can screw further plans on "purchasing" Pattern Imprint and other significant powers. Arguably it's mostly newbie players who go berserk on auctions, but sometimes veterans will do it too because of a character concept they have in mind.

For players who end up with little capital to finish their character it's a bit akin to someone who rolled weird/weak rolls in a D&D char gen. They try to make sense out of the little resource they've got. It can be in a tactical or character color/background kind of sense.

Amber char gen can be played in a point buy kind of way, with planification and min/maxing. But it's less of a solitary pleasure than "normal" point buy char gen. I've seen more excitement in Amber char gen than any other point buy system char gen. That's why I wouldn't call it "point buy" per se.