Why is basic Pattern worth 50 points?

[Croaker]

Exactly, that's how I saw the black road. A sort of Real Infection of Shadow. This is also why shadow powers were useless against it. Thanks a lot

Note also that, since it was created partly due to Corwin's curse, there was an added difficulty there, especially for him.

[jibbajibba]

Pattern is not worth 50 points. This is true from a game perspective vis a vis power, flexibility etc but it's it even more true from the perspective of the books.
You need no training to walk the Pattern, Coral and Dara prove that. There is no need to 'learn the last of Dworkin's lore ' etc .
To me this is one of the best drivers for Partial powers. You get Pattern for 10 points. but all you can do with it is a standard shadow walk. You want to do fancy stuff like manipulate probability, or track someone well that you have to learn.
I can only assume that when Erick was designing the game he wanted to make Pattern the coolest power because Corwin, the coolest character in the books doesn't seem to have access to much else (hotfoot cantrips aside.
If you look at the Merlin cycle and the way Merlin uses his powers Pattern is something that is very background like a standard tool. He makes much more use of sorcery, trump and logrus when he wants to achieve a particular goal.
I woudl ahve Pattern as a huge potential power you can tap into for all sorts of stuff, but players have to learn that stuff (using pattern to power your endurance, empower items, as the driver for your spells etc etc) separately and it costs time effort and points.

[boulet]

I doubt there is a simple logical justification to be found inside the books to why Pattern is worth 50 points. I don't understand the need to link the price tags of powers with how difficult they are to acquire. There's no inner truth about Amber multiverse to be found in the hierarchy of powers and their costs.

I can only assume that when Erick was designing the game he wanted to make Pattern the coolest power because Corwin, the coolest character in the books doesn't seem to have access to much else (hotfoot cantrips aside

It is the "coolest" power. It is the Pattern that enables a prince to raise armies. It is the Pattern which shaped the personality of the family. The delusion of divinity, the self enticement to a greater role, to be a conductor for all creation and all subjects. Since I can't find a logical cause inside the fiction for those odd 50 points, it has to be symbolic, it must be about narrative significance.

[jibbajibba]

But the ease of acquiring Pattern can act as a game breaker. The player that doesn't bother to buy pattern but starts in amber with roayl blood and just walks it. Yeah they have 50 points of bad stuff but how can you seriously differentiate between 50 and 25 or even 10 points.
The partial power solution gets round this and there is enough Stuff you could in theory do with Pattern to make the basic package have 50 points worth of things in but these are not things that a user can do out of the bag.

I think the ability to acquire stuff shoudl be linked to its power and cost.

Yes Pattern can get you an army on the chaeap but there are many ways to raise an army. I could summon one with magic, pluck them from shadow with logrus, I could even draw a trump of them.

[boulet]

I admit you've got kind of a point with the example of a PC of royal blood who didn't pay for Pattern. But one could turn the argument around and say : "if the PC hasn't secured those 50 points maybe he/she isn't of royal blood after all ?"

[jibbajibba]

I admit you've got kind of a point with the example of a PC of royal blood who didn't pay for Pattern. But one could turn the argument around and say : "if the PC hasn't secured those 50 points maybe he/she isn't of royal blood after all ?"

But then you are saying being of the house of Dworkin costs 50 points and you can buy that for 6 :-)

I just think the whole cost of powers is an advert for a partial power

[RPGPundit]

Not hurt so much as tiring to focus the concentration on the pattern. It HURTS the Logrus user.

Focusing on the pattern takes time and effort, though in my campaign you can do it faster if you have enough psyche, but it will be more exhausting. While you have focused on Pattern Defense, you are pretty well immune to the logrus, but you have to keep up the concentration, and can't really do much of anything else very effectively (unless you're a stat GOD like some Elders might be).

RPGPundit

[RPGPundit]

I said "in ADRPG"

The corebook talks about Logrus vulnerability to Pattern (p47, and probably more). IIRC, nowhere does it states any vulnerability of Pattern to Logrus energies.

As per corwin, I never saw this as confrontation with Logrus, but rather as an effort to alter a too real segment of shadow

The corebook does talk about how difficult it is to bring up and maintain Pattern Defense.

Yes, in my campaign there is a bit of elaboration on that idea. On the other hand, in my campaign you can bring up Pattern Defense quicker than you ought to be able to according to the rulebook, and you can walk the pattern for free without incurring bad stuff.

RPGPundit

[RPGPundit]

I suspect that a big part is that it buys you into the royal house of Amber. It may be that the question is not why is pattern so expensive but why is Amber devotee so cheap?

I would say mainly because you have very little control over this purchase.  You don't get to pick your devotee, you don't even get to know who your devotee is (though you can guess) and you don't get to pick exactly how your Devotee's devotion for you manifests.

RPGPundit

[gabriel_ss4u]

Exactly, that's how I saw the black road. A sort of Real Infection of Shadow. This is also why shadow powers were useless against it. Thanks a lot

Note also that, since it was created partly due to Corwin's curse, there was an added difficulty there, especially for him.

Or perhaps it was easier for him that it was his curse, and another Amberite may have had the more difficult time of it....

[Croaker]

Not hurt so much as tiring to focus the concentration on the pattern. It HURTS the Logrus user.

Yup!

[RPGPundit]

So the point is that pattern defense is still going to be a winning proposition in a one-on-one fight between an amberite and a logrus master. You'll get tired, but he'll be fried, and out of the two of you the chaosian will always be the one who ends up worse off.

Of course, this being Amber there are always ways around that. If the Logrus user manages to keep you distracted, if he's preventing you from having the time needed to concentrate on the pattern, or if he attacks you without actually making physical contact, you could still be fucked.

RPGPundit

[boulet]

Do you guys consider that this superiority of the Pattern over the Logrus may change depending if the confrontation happens close to the Court of Chaos ?

[RPGPundit]

I don't really see it that way; though I imagine that an Advanced Logrus master may have certain safeguards that he might be able to rely on; though even those would depend on finding a way to make an attack without directly entering into contact with the Pattern.

RPGPundit

[Croaker]

IMO, the Pattern protects even without concentrating on it, with direct contact with an Amberite concentrating on it being worse. How else could Amber have won the war against Chaos?

P47: "Any time the logrus, or any of its tendrils, come into contact with something containing Pattern (like an Amberite), it sends a shockwave through the entire logrus construct. The sensation will instantly travel along the tendril, and disrupt what the logrus master has brought to mind, as well as conveying a rather nasty headache".
Note that it doesn't talk about an amberite concentrating on Pattern, just an amberite, because, well, an amberite contains pattern in its blood, just as a trump disrupts Logrus without you having to use Trump Defense (see below, logrus-trump contact). This isn't dangerous to the Amberite or Logrus Master, but will certainly nullify the latter's advantage and even the odds. This, to me, is one of the great advantages of basic pattern imprint: It forces all those logrus masters with high psyche to either attack indirectly (in which case, you can use warfare to dodge and all), or confront you directly (and then, their high psyche means nothing)

And when you actively concentrate on your Pattern Defense? See just below:
Still p47: "Using a logrus tendril to touch the pattern, can cause severe dammage, or even death".
While I don't see Pattern Defense being as worse as a direct contact with the Pattern itself, I see it as a close second.

This also has the advantage of explaining nicely how all those Chaos Lords could be defeated by a few amberites.
I also see Pattern Defense as able to protect you (but nothing else) against Primal Chaos, although this'll be a tough feat.

And nope, I don't see Pattern Losing any efficacity near Chaos:
- Then again, Amber won the war at Chaos Doors.
- Pattern swords kill chaosites just finely there