What do you mean Random's going to be king?

[Tolknor]

Ok, just for shirts and giggles.

How did you have Elders respond to Random's gaining the throne?

Acceptance?  Anger?  Despair?  How did you explain it to the kids?

If your game was set in Post-patternfall era, how did people manage?  What changes did you institute?

For my part.  I ran Random as a pro-active king.  Quick to quell disruptions and a little too eager to settle problems without violence right now.   In my second game i had Random overhaul the ministries, modernize bookkeeping methods, and start a massive infrastructure program.

The Infrastructure program included plumbing for running water throughout the city, sewage systems to get flush toilets to replace overnight bowls and stop people from mucking up the roadways.  It also included a massive repaving project in the city and on the main roads north and south.  Roman-style puzzled roads replaced the rutted dirt highways and badly cobbled roadways.  A more efficient city lighting program and a city wide carriage system for mass transit and cargo transportation.

As for the Elders;Benedict was grumpily maneuvered into becoming Marshal of Amber and was not pleased,  Caine started hiding the good silverware and became something of a kleptomaniac,  Flora blossomed into the Hostess of Amber, Llewella returned to Rebma and was rarely heard from again.

Julian had an encounter with the Unicorn, finally, and got religion.

Bleys, his ambitions destroyed, his reason to live gone, became a wastrel social butterfly on the cultural/theater scene in Amber.  Loud, outlandish, hilarious, and almost always drunk out of his gourd.  

In time they mostly accepted Random as king, but each at one point or another regretted not having throttled Random in his youth.

As for the Kids; my Random had one too many amberite come out of the wood works.  Dalt, Rinaldo, Coral, Derek, Merlin, Jurt, Despil, and finally, the last straw, Rene, son of Moire and Corwin.  So he had a temper-tantrum and made a royal decree that he wanted to speak to every child of Amber blood born, one way or another.  He called "Olly olly oxen free"  "Come out come out where ever you are".  He demanded all amberites bring their children to court.

They did, and that's where the PCs for the game came from.

[RPGPundit]

Its one of the big questions; the second series implies that the transition was quite peaceful and accepted by all.

However, I would think that some people in the line of succession (and who actually wanted it) would be extremely pissed that Random was given the job.

Of course, most of those who would have wanted it, been eligible, and been capable of getting it in theory are either dead or don't want it anymore.  Eric and Brand are gone, Corwin has no interest anymore.

What you're left with, as a serious opponent, someone who has no particular reason to stop wanting the Throne just because his equine ancestor gave it to the runt of the family, is Bleys.  I don't think he'd just take it lying down.  But he's clever enough to know that enough of the family have sufficient goodwill toward Random that he can't just storm up and start a civil war again.  Instead, he has to work first to destabilize the crown and confidence among the royals in Random's ability to really do the job.  In my campaigns set at that time, that's almost always what he sets out to do.

RPGPundit

[waylandfr]

I believe like in any other political games you are the ruler if you have enough power or allies to maintain yourself.

Random has gain by the Unicorn approval the support of Benedict, Gerard, Julian,  Flora, Bleys and Fiona. None of them (in my campaign) is interested by the throne for themselves especially now that the Main power of the universe choose for them.

Who would be foolish enough to oppose those 7 major players.

[Tolknor]

While i ran Bleys as crushed by the end of the succession issue i also kept in mind that, like Caine, he might just be taking a few hundred years off and still have long range ambitions.  I've seen people go to pieces over failed ambitions in this world, i have to imagine failed ambitions that had centuries to build up might take decades to recover from, and perhaps decades to reorient for.

 Also each of the Elders, even while not involved with the PCs on a day to day basis, kept up detailed observations on them.  Perhaps one of them might be helpful in their long range goals.

One of the little comments i liked from Corwin was how talking over family politics might have saved a few lives over the years.  This trait is hardly unusual to anyone who has ever had to deal with multiple branches of families in our world.  

A sudden influx of children and grandchildren of the Elders might make the old folks take a few decades to see what mischief they got into or that they could get blamed for!

[Artifacts of Amber]

My present campaign has Is post first series so this is very relevant. I have thought about the current attitude's of the Elders but didn't really think about how some elders would react after the Unicorn chose.

This is something I will now put some thought into considering how it may affect the current reactions of the Elders. I try tnot to nail down too much in my mind the Elders taht are not on stage right now in my game. Leaves me flexible to develop them like I need to if and when they show up. My stage is pretty small actually with only Random (char's Father and the King), Julian (Char's father), and Caine (Thought to be a Char's father) are the only elder's I have focused on. BTW players chose their parents. Others have only been in a scene or two with most being un involved. Fiona is about to become a bigger presence since one player is seeking her as a teacher.


I will have to think on how the others took the Unicorn's choice. I do like the idea of some not taking it well at all and how that will affect thier attitudes since this would still be fairly fresh for the Elder's.

Maybe save this for the plot after the present one if the players don't develop something of thier own.

Things to think about.

[Tolknor]

I will have to think on how the others took the Unicorn's choice. I do like the idea of some not taking it well at all and how that will affect thier attitudes since this would still be fairly fresh for the Elder's.

Maybe save this for the plot after the present one if the players don't develop something of thier own.

Things to think about.

I have often thought that once the unicorn did her thing, and once everyone knew she was grandma, there might have been a big sigh of relief.   They had plotted and angled and schemed and made cabals and such for centuries.  It had to have been a constant nervous presence at every meeting between siblings.  Every meeting with Oberon had to have been bittersweet.  Everyone trying to guage if the gift Oberon gave them was bigger then what he gave someone else. Every regency, every manor, every thing tainted by the succession.   Then Oberon disappears and what had been ongoing family politics ramps up to incredibly dangerous levels.  Eric's side, Brands side, Corwins, etc.  

Suddenly having all of that tramadrama settled might have been a huge freaking relief.  In time the old politics will probably come back but it might take a few decades.  Just a thought.

[Artifacts of Amber]

Tolknor

True that is a valid point. I guess you could look at it as up until that point they only knew Oberon as king and that hearsay had it that the Unicorn granted him the divine right. Now they actually witness the Unicorn choose a successor.

Also think what it cost them to fight over the throne, Eric, Oberon, Brand, Diedre dead. How many had died before that? What osiric and Finndo maybe. Everyone else like sand and delwin wandered away. And even then those deaths seem to be old news to most the elders, except maybe Benedict.

how do those deaths over the throne war impact what they think about this religious experience.

I think a few fall into a belief in the Unicorn or at least a fear of it as the divine being of Amber. I am still working through this thoughts so haven't locked everybody down. I mean some would still have to scoff, I think, at the Unicorn's choice or ability to choose. Not everyone is going to buy the Unicorn as divine angle.

Even more to think of

[Sydius Mendoza]

They way I had this worked out was mainly acceptance across the board. Succession had been a major issue for a very long time because Oberon refused to name a successor. Everybody close to the front of the line of succession had their own justifications on why they were next in line. Those far down the line (*cough* Random *cough*) figured they were so far from the head of the list that they didn't even bother pursuing it further than support for a front runner.

But this only happened because Oberon would not name a successor. He leaves the decision on the horn of the Unicorn, which the elders take this as Oberon's choice , as though named directly by him.

I've been working on some of my notes for Random as King. Not wanting to see the plotting and bickering of his generation repeated by a new one, He immediately nips any questions of his successor by stating that his successor will be chosen the same way he was. It doesn't eliminate scheming by any means, but it does remove arguing over succession order from the list of  Amberite favorite past times.

[Tolknor]

Tolknor



I think a few fall into a belief in the Unicorn or at least a fear of it as the divine being of Amber.  Not everyone is going to buy the Unicorn as divine angle.

Even more to think of

True.  Everyone might not buy the Unicorn as the divine being of Amber.  Maybe they shouldn't, no more then they buy Dworkin as a divine person.  

Another way to think of the Unicorn though is to consider that even if she is the Primal being of the pattern, the pattern itself came from the Jewel.  She and Dworkin were just there to provide blood and entertainment while the pattern was forged.

 Also, the Unicorn, in my games anyway, was just as capable of shapechanging in to a woman as Dworkin was able to shapechange into a creature.  After all, if the Unicorn and Dworkin mated, did Dworkin become a Unicorn and the unicorn bore Oberon in her womb as a equine?  Perhaps Dworkin and the Unicorn were in human form and she bore him thus.  This lets the Unicorn, call her Eve, explain things herself.

[RPGPundit]

I've been working on some of my notes for Random as King. Not wanting to see the plotting and bickering of his generation repeated by a new one, He immediately nips any questions of his successor by stating that his successor will be chosen the same way he was. It doesn't eliminate scheming by any means, but it does remove arguing over succession order from the list of  Amberite favorite past times.

The way I see it, that wouldn't solve anything, though.  First, whoever isn't keen on Random as king would likely ignore that; particularly those who have a good reason to argue for the old line of succession; being told that what you feel is your birthright is no longer a factor of consideration is just likely to piss you off more, if anything.

Second, saying "the next guy will be chosen by the Unicorn too" just opens it up for anyone to feel like they have a chance of being the next king.  Those Amberites who aren't digging Random as king but who wouldn't really stand any chance in the chronological line of succession now feel that they have as much of a chance as anyone else (in fact, Random's succession opens that up regardless of what he might say or not say about it; that's something that tends to happen when you get these kinds of breaks in the line of succession; its one of the reason clear succession rules were so popular in monarchies).

Third, unless there's something radically different about your Random, it would generally be known that he can't actually back this up. He can say it all he want, but he's not his dad (if indeed Oberon had anything to do with what the Unicorn did the first time around), and he really can't just get the Unicorn to decide a second time.  It might, but there's no guarantee it will, and Random saying it will doesn't make it so.

RPGPundit

[Tolknor]

Ya, nothing Random says is going to stop someone who really wants the throne. No amount of legalese will stop someone with ambition and no loyalty.  Having a throne is often harder then claiming it.  

Still, Random's a card player.  Everyone knows he might be bluffing.  But the Rule amongst poker players is that to bluff well you have to occasionally have the cards to back it up.

[Sydius Mendoza]

I see what you are getting at. But I don't completely agree with some of your assertions.

The way I see it, that wouldn't solve anything, though.  First, whoever isn't keen on Random as king would likely ignore that; particularly those who have a good reason to argue for the old line of succession; being told that what you feel is your birthright is no longer a factor of consideration is just likely to piss you off more, if anything.

This makes sense, but I could just as easily argue the opposite case. The Unicorn is viewed by the elders with awe, if not outright reverence. Is it really that much of a stretch to suppose that, even if they don't like the decision, they are honor/duty/whatever- bound to abide by it?

Second, saying "the next guy will be chosen by the Unicorn too" just opens it up for anyone to feel like they have a chance of being the next king.  Those Amberites who aren't digging Random as king but who wouldn't really stand any chance in the chronological line of succession now feel that they have as much of a chance as anyone else (in fact, Random's succession opens that up regardless of what he might say or not say about it; that's something that tends to happen when you get these kinds of breaks in the line of succession; its one of the reason clear succession rules were so popular in monarchies).
RPGPundit

In traditional monarchies, yes. I don't know that Amber fully qualifies as such. Oberon left the matter of succession intentionally undecided for two reasons as I see it. He knew that declaring his successor meant that person might be in danger from his siblings. And he probably saw it as a measure of self defense by keeping his spawn so busy fighting with each other that they could not effectively scheme against him. According to traditional rules of succession Corwin should have been heir to the throne. As he is (by his reckoning) the eldest legitimate male heir. I acknowledge the "Unreliable narrator" argument, but these things being left to personal preference I have ignored it. I also think that trying to enforce traditional rules of succession with characters that are immortal (or close enough as makes no never mind) is an exercise in futility.

Third, unless there's something radically different about your Random, it would generally be known that he can't actually back this up. He can say it all he want, but he's not his dad (if indeed Oberon had anything to do with what the Unicorn did the first time around), and he really can't just get the Unicorn to decide a second time. It might, but there's no guarantee it will, and Random saying it will doesn't make it so.

It doesn't require a radically different interpretation of Random. It also doesn't NEED to be 100% true (or at all for that matter). Random just needs to sell the bluff well enough for a new generation to believe him (a task well within his skill set). IMC Random is not actively worried about his siblings because for all their scheming ways they are still men of honor. They swore fealty, and that's that. Now that is not to say that he trusts them, that would be silly. He keeps them busy serving the realm in one capacity or another. As for the youngbloods, he doesn't name Martin his successor for the same reason Oberon didn't do so for Corwin, to protect him. But seeing how well this worked out for Oberon (re: not at all), and coupled with the fact that Random was not a fan of how Oberon treated his children, Random sees that leaving it undecided is just as bad.

[RPGPundit]

I don't buy the idea that an oath is going to suddenly make all the elders honor-bound to eternal fealty to Random.  I don't think its the new generation he has to be worried about.

RPGPundit

[Sydius Mendoza]

I don't buy the idea that an oath is going to suddenly make all the elders honor-bound to eternal fealty to Random.  
RPGPundit

Well that's just bully for you, cuz I ain't selling it. It is all about perspective and interpretation. If mine doesn't jive with yours, that's fine. I'm happy to explain my interpretation if it adds to the discussion, as opposed devolving into debate.

[Sydius Mendoza]

Where I am coming from on this stems from a comment made by Corwin about himself and his brothers. I'm paraphrasing here, but it's something like "... for we are all of us, honorable men"

I take this to mean that for all of his pragmatism, if Corwin gives his word he will do his best to honor it. And that he believes the same to be true of his brothers (most of them anyway,*cough* Caine *cough*). Not saying that they don't lie, or that they are trustworthy by any stretch, just that oaths and giving ones 'word' means something to the elders. So when I say "honor-bound" I don't really mean honor in a chivalric sense, so much as personal honor.

Elders have weird games they play with each other. For example, in the Corwin cycle apologies are a big fucking deal. Which makes sense if you stop to think about it. Here you have these beings that are damn near all powerful, and answerable to almost no one. They all have a mentality that amounts to "can do no wrong". Apologies are the antithesis of Amberite pride, so if one is given (or offered) it is not a minor thing.

Not to mention the kill-shot to your whole objection is the fact that all I have to do to justify myself is to state that IMC oaths sworn that invoke the Unicorn and/or Pattern are every bit as potent as blood curse. Frankly, I don't feel that it is necessary.