I just finished with Amber.Ten novels and five short stories...It's truly sad that such masterpiece series is unfinished.
First of all, sorry for bad English and grammar mistakes.English is my second language:) Books impressed me so much and I decided to share my feeligs)Most Amber-related forums are dead, and then I found this one.
So, with amber short stories Zelazny wanted to tie up loose ends from previous ten books.Unfortunately, they're actually add new mysteries and tease uncoming plot twists.
We have: new mysterious villian, "alive" castle amber", and spikards, of course.Also it's a huge plot hole with Corwin's Pattern.Oh, when I think about it, it really hurts.
Was there any information about planned, but unwritten Amber cycle?For example, is it known, how many books RZ wanted to do?Or who should have been the narrator(in short stories we have POVs of Corwin, Merlin and surprisingly Luke and Frakir)? Too bad, Roger didn't tell some plot details to someone, before he died.I mean, it's really strange, he had friends, collegues, wife(? not sure about that) and he never shared his plans with anyone...And no materials left? There were cases, when book series were finished auther's death.Roger Jordan "wheel of time" saga as an example.Ok, maybe I just take it too serious, but I really loved these books, loved these characters and knowing that I've never be able to learn fates of Corwin, Merlin and others just burns me inside:)
Anyway, it was a great journey, and I'm really glad that I finally discovered such talanted writer as Roger Zelazny.Can't wait to check out his other works.
Welcome to theRPGsite!
And yes, there were a series of short stories after the Merlin saga. After that there was a plan to do another set of books where supposedly Luke was going to be the main character.
Roger Zelazny was explicit in his wishes that he did not want anyone else to write stories in the Amber universe; he made this clear even when he was dying.
Thank you for answering :)
Luke is nice character, and and I enjoyed him being a narrator in "Salesman's tale" short story.But for the new set of books...I thought, child of Merlin and Coral was a perfect choice for narrator."Amber" series would have been a beautiful tale of three generations.But for some reasons Zelazny took away mention about Coral's pregnancy from last book "Prince of Chaos".
Also I think I read or heard somewhere, that Zelazny wanted to kill Merlin off, but now I can't find this information.Did someone heard about this, or it's just I missed something?
Oh, I found out, where I read about Merlin's "possible death".It has nothing to do with Zelazny's interviews or plans.It's
just fragment from short story "The Shroudling and the Guisel".Merlin is talking with Rhanda and she says "Mayhap you will die soon" to him.
Here it is:
"Why do you come to me now, Rhanda?" I asked. "After all these years?"
She looked away.
"Mayhap you will die soon," she said after a time, "and I wished to
recall our happy days together at Wildwood."
"Die soon? I live in danger. I can't deny it. I'm too near the Throne.
But I've strong protectors--and I am stronger than people think."
"As I said, I have watched," she stated. "I do not doubt your prowess.
I've seen you hang many spells and maintain them. Some of them I do not even
understand."
Recently I read too much information about Zelazny and Amber because, as I said, these books really impressed me.And too much info just mixed up in my head:)Sorry for misiformation:)
Quote from: Runaway;925115So, with amber short stories Zelazny wanted to tie up loose ends from previous ten books.Unfortunately, they're actually add new mysteries and tease upcoming plot twists.
I read once that Zelazny described himself as an "intuitive author" whereby he would drop in details for no apparent reason, then a couple books later would discover how those details could fit into his current plotline. In other words, he may not have had a "master plan" as to where the series was supposed to go or what he had planned on writing later.
There was a prequel written in the 20??'s they were pretty good. They felt like 9 princes. Not the genius but readable. Oberon is the narrator. It's pre pattern.
Yes, I heard about Betancourt prequel-novels.There are three of them.Some people like it, and some people hate to death.Going to check it out later, now I'm reading Zelazny's "Lord of Light".
Quote from: finarvyn;925382In other words, he may not have had a "master plan" as to where the series was supposed to go or what he had planned on writing later.
Yeah,I also read, that He didn't know how the series going to end, when he started "nine princes"...
And I found this:http: //adrp.proboards.com/thread/49/errors-shadow-knight
Can you explain the second error?:)
Also this:
"In the manuscript Merlin is told that Coral is pregnant, but Roger pulled that from the published book (this was around the same time he started to think about a third series, and I suspect he decided to save that little bit of discovery for a later book)".
I think Zelazny changed his mind on Coral's pregnancy, because by that time he could already knew, that he's ill, and may not have enough time to write more novels.So he dicided to write short stories instead and removed Melrin's child from plot...
For me the biggest mystery and unanswered question of the books is Corwin's Pattern.Corwin was prisoned by Dara till the end of the second set of books, so he didn't have a chance to ecsplore his Pattern.How it actually works?Can it create shadows?Is it as powerful as Primal Pattern?If so, does it make Corwin a demigod, creator of his own universe, like Dworkin?According to Dworkin's words, he has a special bound with Primal Pattern, "he is the Pattern".He also can't be killed as long as Pattern is not destroyed.Is it same fo Corwin.He didn't use his blood to create new Pattern as Dworkin did.So does Corwin has such bound with his Pattern?
I think, explorig and evolution of Corwin's Pattern should have been one of the main themes(also spikards) in unwritten novels.
Quote from: finarvyn;925382I read once that Zelazny described himself as an "intuitive author" whereby he would drop in details for no apparent reason, then a couple books later would discover how those details could fit into his current plotline. In other words, he may not have had a "master plan" as to where the series was supposed to go or what he had planned on writing later.
That sounds like the method Moebius used when writing the Airtight Garage though on a smaller scale.
Quote from: Runaway;925710Yes, I heard about Betancourt prequel-novels.There are three of them.Some people like it, and some people hate to death.Going to check it out later, now I'm reading Zelazny's "Lord of Light".
I don't hate the Betancourt books, but I'll be the first to state that the quality isn't that high. Still, for me, some Amber is better than no Amber. My biggest frustration is that Betancourt wrote book 4 but that book 5 got cancelled, so the series "ends" on a cliffhanger.
If you read Zelazny's
A Dark Travelling you may find it to be a lot like an alternate Amber. Children exploring various dimensions with the help of a special radio.
His Changeling duology can be read as two Shadow sorcerors learning the rules of magic in different Shadows. But then Zelazny did tend to revisit the same themes in his works.
Quote from: daniel_ream;927458His Changeling duology can be read as two Shadow sorcerors learning the rules of magic in different Shadows. But then Zelazny did tend to revisit the same themes in his works.
Agreed. I think it's interesting that Zelazny had two "voices" when he wrote, and that I love one but dislike the other. Essentially, he is both one of my favorite and least favorite authors of all time. :-D
One was the wisecracking hero as seen in Amber, Dilvish, Shadowjack, Changeling, Lord Demon, and others. I love that style of Roger's works. The other is more philosophical and out there and I just can't get a handle on it. Not a fan.
My favourite "Amber-Not-Amber" book is Zelazny's "Creatures of Light and Darkness". You may want to check it out. It can be read as kind of a proto-Amber with Egyptian gods. I enjoyed it immensely.
//Panjumanju
Quote from: daniel_ream;927458His Changeling duology can be read as two Shadow sorcerors learning the rules of magic in different Shadows. But then Zelazny did tend to revisit the same themes in his works.
"Manna From Heaven" feels very much like the proto-Merlin story.
Quote from: Runaway;925710Yes, I heard about Betancourt prequel-novels.There are three of them.Some people like it, and some people hate to death.Going to check it out later, now I'm reading Zelazny's "Lord of Light".
Great book, was about to recommend it.
Nothing to do with Amber but if you're on a Zelazny kick then A Night in the Lonesome October is absolutely fantastic.
My favourite Zelazny novel is the fantasy JACK OF SHADOWS. His novella 'For a Breath I Tarry' is my favourite of his shorter work (where I think he did his best work usually) even with its slightly cliche ending.
Quote from: Daztur;941889Great book, was about to recommend it.
Nothing to do with Amber but if you're on a Zelazny kick then A Night in the Lonesome October is absolutely fantastic.
I re-read it each October! Such a fun read!
You have to remeber as well that between Corwin and Merlin sagas Zelazny wasn't quite as reticent at allowing other authors to write about Amber. So you get the two 'Choose your own Adventure' style books. Seven No Trump - in which Random tries to solve an interesting little plot and The Black Road War written from the perspective of Derek a son of Eric.
They are both written by Neil Randall who wrote the Visual guide to Castle Amber. They are better than than and better than the Benecourt novels in as much as they are trying to tell their own tales in the setting as opposed to just retreading the first set of books in the past. However Seven No Trump is much better. I don't think Randall is great with his own characters, like Derek, although as we know from the Visual Guide he can also fuck up existing characters quite well too :)
If you are a fan (and why else would you even be here) they are worth getting hold of.
I am still upset that Zelazny didn't free Amber before he died as his actions meant his estate got a hack like Benecourt to write a follow up as opposed to letting Zelazny's friends including Martin and Gaiman to have a go both of whom would have done an outstanding job. A book like the Martin edited Rogues or Warriors with a plethora of modern authors having a stab would have been glorious.
I need to give the Amber novels another try, kinda lost interest after the first two books. But I tend to prefer self contained novels to series: The Dream Master, Lord of Light, the short stories.
Any of the later fantasy novels as good as Jack of Shadows?
Quote from: Voros;945896I need to give thr Amber novels another try, kinda lost interest after the first two books. But I tend to prefer self contained novels to series: The Dream Master, Lord of Light, the short stories.
Any of the later fantasy novels as good as Jack of Shadows?
I really didn't care for Jack of shadows. In fact I thought it was a steaming pile of shit.
Thanks for the helpful reply.
Now if someone with something constructive to add to the conversation could reply please do so.
Sorry didn't mean to imply there was anything wrong with you for liking it. Its just odd. He's my favorite author. Its a book other fans like. Its got cool stuff in it, the Morning/evening star. Was completely bored and disapointed by the book. I guess it was more cold shit for me. Nothing about it steamed and that was the problem for me.
Again this is ment as literary critisim not personal criticism. I would like to like it.
Okay I thought you were just trolling. I haven't read any of the novels after the first Amber trilogy as I heard their quality is uneven. Damnation Alley looks like it could be fun in a goofy way.
If thats the one about driving accross s post apooclptic america it is fun.
If you didn't like nine princes I don't know what to tell you.
I don't think Zelany gets any better than that. I don't think books get any better than that.
I think you misunderstood, I didn't dislike Nince Princes I just didn't continue reading as I'm not into series. I intend to return and finish it. I would say though that I like them but do prefer his other stories and books by a hair.
Quote from: Voros;946384I think you misunderstood, I didn't dislike Nince Princes I just didn't continue reading as I'm not into series. I intend to return and finish it. I would say though that I like them but do prefer his other stories and books by a hair.
People have different tastes on Zelazny. I liked Creatures of Light and Darkness a bit better than Amber in some ways. I couldn't stand Changeling. And there's a reason Lord of Light won the Hugo and nothing else he wrote did.
Personally, I never liked the idea of introducing gunpowder to Amber.
I don't know why that didn't spark an arms race.
//Panjumanju
Have you read Dream Master or his early short stories? I think they're remarkable. Lord of Light is good but I don't think it is his best, many great books won Hugos back them but many other equally good books didn't. I'll probably start a new thread to discuss his other books and see if anyone has recommendations for the later stuff.
Personally I liked Creatures of Light and Darkness. Mostly an Amber fan, especially the first five books honestly. Some of his short stories are pretty good.
Quote from: Thoth;956143Mostly an Amber fan, especially the first five books honestly.
It's amazing to me how many Amber fans qualify it by mentioning the first five books specifially. I know that the tone of the Merlin Saga was different, but I have always been intrigued by the depth of campaign that is revealed in the second five. I mean, the first five are clearly better written and mostly tie up a plotline, but the second five add in new things that are a lot of fun, too, particularly from a gaming perspective.
It's funny because early on Zelazny's reputation was very much built on his early short stories and he was considered one of the leading lights of the 'New Wave' sf in the 60s but he is now remembered best for his overt fantasy like Amber.