To Still 'Game' Without Dice

[RPGPundit]

In the terms of Erick Wujcik, 'diceless' also means 'randomless'; without any mechanic for generating random results such as dice, cards, sticks, runes, et al.

//Panjumanju

This. The card element of Everway makes it technically not quite non-random; but it's still pretty damn close.

[ArrozConLeche]

The game I mentioned, Solipsist, is very much non random, as is Mortal Coil, and I think one of the old Marvel games. However, unlike Amber, they have a resource management thing going.

I have not checked out Nobilis yet, but I hear that one is completely non random as well.

[Croaker]

I think one of the old Marvel games. However, unlike Amber, they have a resource management thing going.

I have not checked out Nobilis yet, but I hear that one is completely non random as well.

Yup and Yup.

Also, Alienoids, an old french RPG whose author wrote of Wujcik as being "The Messiah" for bringing us Amber, can be played with or without dices (in which case it works not unlike Amber)

[TristramEvans]

I was always intrigued by Theatrix, but never managed to get a hold of a copy. I just had one of the supplements (lol, wrote a review of it like a decade or so ago back on rpgnet)

[RPGPundit]

I've never liked resource-management diceless games.  They felt like beancounting to me.

[Bren]

I've never liked resource-management diceless games.  They felt like beancounting to me.

You say that like beancounting is automatically and obviously a bad thing rather than just something you don't happen to enjoy.

[RPGPundit]

You say that like beancounting is automatically and obviously a bad thing rather than just something you don't happen to enjoy.

Well, I can imagine some people can find that interested, but I think its just too predictable, ironically.

And too administrative.  One of the things I love about the Amber-based games is that players literally don't have to think about stats at all once they know what their PC relatively has.  They don't have to fiddle with points or attributes, but rather can think of everything in terms of what their character knows they can do, in game.

[Croaker]

I think it depends on how it's handled.

I really hated the ressource managment in gumshoe (I felt a pressure to hoard on your ressources and thus do as little as possible), while I loved it in the Marvel RPG (which felt more like you where encouraged to try and do things). But then, I read the later before the former, so maybe it'd felt the same way today.

[Panjumanju]

Resource management on any level always pulls me out of the game. It feels like it exists on some macro-level beyond the scope of the character itself, reminding me not to feel invested because this is definitely just a game. Any time I have to plan the resources I have left versus possible tasks it's been the death of verisimilitude. There must be an immersive way to conduct resource management...but I haven't found it.

//Panjumanju

[ArrozConLeche]

Resource management on any level always pulls me out of the game. It feels like it exists on some macro-level beyond the scope of the character itself, reminding me not to feel invested because this is definitely just a game. Any time I have to plan the resources I have left versus possible tasks it's been the death of verisimilitude. There must be an immersive way to conduct resource management...but I haven't found it.

//Panjumanju

Make the resource itself part of the fiction, instead of leaving it abstract, is my guess.

I don't mind stepping out of the character to use resource management as a resolution mechanic. IN that regard, it doesn't feel any different than stepping out for a moment to roll a d20.

[Artifacts of Amber]

That's the thing there is no stepping out to roll in dice less.

I like Amber cause the character sheet does go away. Only thing that usually remains are note books for player notes, cause they forget what the characters know. That's about it.

I think Amber is the only game I know that got diceless right as a system. The genre needs tweaking but I think any works based on fiction have to be reshaped some to make it a "Game" instead of "Fiction".

[ArrozConLeche]

That's the thing there is no stepping out to roll in dice less.

I like Amber cause the character sheet does go away. Only thing that usually remains are note books for player notes, cause they forget what the characters know. That's about it.

I think Amber is the only game I know that got diceless right as a system. The genre needs tweaking but I think any works based on fiction have to be reshaped some to make it a "Game" instead of "Fiction".

that's a good point. It's a trade off, though. The thing that I like about  resource managing mechanics that are open is that they feel 'fair'. If something doesn't go your way you have no GM to 'blame'.  

I'm not talking about distrust in the GM, but I know there will be some calls that I would not agree with. No such thing with resource mechanics since they're so deterministic.

[Croaker]

There is ressource management in Amber. The only difference is that most of the management comes down on the GM's shoulders.

- Do I try to end this fight quickly, putting all my strength into it? Or to I play defensively?
- Oh, I am tired, do I really want to traverse the pattern now?
- I can try to fight all these guys now, which may leave me too tired afterwards, or flee and try to find another way, which may mean I'm too late for stopping my enemy's plans.

Where, in a resource game, a player might have a fatigue pool to spend from, in Amber, she gets clues that his endurance reaches its limits, or not. But the decisions she makes are similar

For example, your warfare might be ranked from 1 to 20+. Fighting consumes 1 endurance point per turn. You may spend extra points to increase your warfare for one round.
In amber, this'll be "I give it all I have, without regards from my safety", or something like that.

[RPGPundit]

I don't put any great value on "fair".  I know that as a GM I'm good enough that I don't need mechanics to hold me back.

That's what I like about the Amber Diceless-system. It's for grownups.

[Bren]

I don't put any great value on "fair".  I know that as a GM I'm good enough that I don't need mechanics to hold me back.

That's what I like about the Amber Diceless-system. It's for grownups.

I think a fair statement is that this is the sort of self-congratulatory codswallop that only people who aren't grownup are wont to say.