Thoughts on past threads

[Doughdee222]

Hi Everyone,
For the past few weeks I've been visiting this site and reading the 18 pages of Amber related threads. Instead of replying to each one separately I'll just compile a few notes on subjects which I can remember.

(About myself: I've been a gamer since 1980, off-and-on, not currently in any game group. I've read all the Amber novels and purchased the two rulebooks soon after they were published. I've never played an Amber game as the nature of it intimidated me but I've always been intrigued by the system. I learned a lot by going through the threads on this forum.)

1. Haven't seen anything posted on this lately, is there any news or chance that there will be a second edition of the rules? Does DbD still own rights to it? Is the Gossamer game the closest we'll ever get to Amber 2E?
My thoughts on the subject: Keep the rules 95% the same. But as a GM I'd like to see a few more definitions and "bones" to hang flesh from. For example how about rounding out the Artifact construction rules and giving more examples. What would a Flying Carpet or ring look like? Or a Monocle of X-Ray vision?
A sample Bestiary would be nice to include. What kind of stats or special powers would a dragon or a Medusa have? Alligators? Rhinos? Velociraptors? Specters/Wraiths/Ghosts? Sharks? Kraken?
To give the Strength attribute some needed "oomph" how about adding a chart describing what it can do. How much weight can be lifted per rank and number value? How far can one leap? How much is needed to kick down a thick wooden door, or an iron door? Etc.
How about adding an Advantages section to character generation? Ambidexterity, increased senses, etc.

2. There was an interesting thread on Martial Arts and Strength Vs. Warfare.
My 2 cents: Warfare is already overvalued so keep MA under Strength. As someone said the problem seems to rest on calling the attribute "Strength." How about calling it "Body" or otherwise enlarging the definition to include Dexterity/Agility and general wiriness. That way one can describe characters such as Bruce Lee, Royce Gracie or a professional dancer with the same attribute. That would make them feel better about placing MAs skills as "Strength."

3. I would like to see a couple alternative forms of Sorcery. The base system is fine (although the time it takes to cast spells seems a bit much.) How about one that simulates GURPS? IE. "I have lots of small to medium sized spells and can cast them quickly any number of times until my energy runs out." Or an "Element Master" character: "I can do anything with fire. Create it, control it, cast fireballs, make a wall, blast a whole area, breath out a cone..." Or one that simulates Harry Potter World.

4. I agree that there is a problem with requiring Shape Shifting with using Logrus. How about a compromise: A 10 or 15 point minor form of SS which allows the user to survive chaotic environments but otherwise doesn't change his appearance. After all, Chaosite babies and adolescents must have some way of surviving the outdoors.

5. I think we should move away from describing Shadow worlds as "unreal". Shadow beings can kill Amberites, and that's "real" enough. The situation more closely resembles "First World" and "Third World" nations. Yes, First World can feel smug and superior to Third World natives, but those natives can still rob you, kidnap you and kill you.

6. Similarly I would downplay Erick Wujcik's insistence on Amberites being vastly superior to shadow folk. Yes, they are superior, as noted they are somewhere above Olympic athletes. But if an Amberite turns a corner and finds ten Sorcerers, or ten gangsters with shot guns and Tommy guns, or a Seal team waiting to kill them, he should begin to sweat. If nothing else this would help make creating interesting encounters easier.

I have other questions and points but this is enough for now.

[Panjumanju]

Hi Everyone,
For the past few weeks I've been visiting this site and reading the 18 pages of Amber related threads. Instead of replying to each one separately I'll just compile a few notes on subjects which I can remember.

Then this is probably going to be a great big huge mess.

1. Haven't seen anything posted on this lately, is there any news or chance that there will be a second edition of the rules? Does DbD still own rights to it? Is the Gossamer game the closest we'll ever get to Amber 2E?

No, there will never be a second edition. Yes, Lords of Gossamer and Shadow is the closest we're ever going to get.

My thoughts on the subject: Keep the rules 95% the same. But as a GM I'd like to see a few more definitions and "bones" to hang flesh from. For example how about rounding out the Artifact construction rules and giving more examples. What would a Flying Carpet or ring look like? Or a Monocle of X-Ray vision?
A sample Bestiary would be nice to include. What kind of stats or special powers would a dragon or a Medusa have? Alligators? Rhinos? Velociraptors? Specters/Wraiths/Ghosts? Sharks? Kraken?

Most would agree.

To give the Strength attribute some needed "oomph" how about adding a chart describing what it can do. How much weight can be lifted per rank and number value? How far can one leap? How much is needed to kick down a thick wooden door, or an iron door? Etc.

Some would agree with you, but others with more willingness to follow Erick Wujcik down the conceptual rabbit hole of 'what a rank is' would say you are missing the point.

How about adding an Advantages section to character generation? Ambidexterity, increased senses, etc.

Again, many agree with you / missing the point. Personally I side with missing the point, and say that's everything the game design was trying to get away from.

2. There was an interesting thread on Martial Arts and Strength Vs. Warfare.
My 2 cents: Warfare is already overvalued so keep MA under Strength. As someone said the problem seems to rest on calling the attribute "Strength." How about calling it "Body" or otherwise enlarging the definition to include Dexterity/Agility and general wiriness. That way one can describe characters such as Bruce Lee, Royce Gracie or a professional dancer with the same attribute. That would make them feel better about placing MAs skills as "Strength."

I do like that suggestion. 'Body' is a good label to encompass both strength and martial arts.

3. I would like to see a couple alternative forms of Sorcery. The base system is fine (although the time it takes to cast spells seems a bit much.) How about one that simulates GURPS? IE. "I have lots of small to medium sized spells and can cast them quickly any number of times until my energy runs out." Or an "Element Master" character: "I can do anything with fire. Create it, control it, cast fireballs, make a wall, blast a whole area, breath out a cone..." Or one that simulates Harry Potter World.

Erick Wujcik himself was quick to say there are many forms of the Sorcery system for Amber, and that's just the one that made it into the book. When I talked with Ed Greenwood about Amber last September, he said every group he ever knew had its own Sorcery system, including Erick's. The one that went to print was certainly not the final one he used. So, you're not alone in your sentiment.

4. I agree that there is a problem with requiring Shape Shifting with using Logrus. How about a compromise: A 10 or 15 point minor form of SS which allows the user to survive chaotic environments but otherwise doesn't change his appearance. After all, Chaosite babies and adolescents must have some way of surviving the outdoors.

It isn't a problem for the setting. If you want a version of Amber that does not require Shape Shifting and Logrus to be paired, I think Lords of Gossamer and Shadow looks to have dealt with that well.

5. I think we should move away from describing Shadow worlds as "unreal". Shadow beings can kill Amberites, and that's "real" enough. The situation more closely resembles "First World" and "Third World" nations. Yes, First World can feel smug and superior to Third World natives, but those natives can still rob you, kidnap you and kill you.

That's just an argument of interpretation with the source material. You are free to adjust the level of reality attributed to shadow denizens in your own game. Some GMs have them be very real, and for others they are cannon fodder.

6. Similarly I would downplay Erick Wujcik's insistence on Amberites being vastly superior to shadow folk. Yes, they are superior, as noted they are somewhere above Olympic athletes. But if an Amberite turns a corner and finds ten Sorcerers, or ten gangsters with shot guns and Tommy guns, or a Seal team waiting to kill them, he should begin to sweat. If nothing else this would help make creating interesting encounters easier.

In all the examples given in the core rulebook, NPCs with weapons are threats. What was it - three assassins disguised as servants, and the PC had to come up with some complex situation where he throws the dinner plate to get an upper hand? In the examples they sure are deadly.

And again, if you're running a game you are directly in control of how deadly the NPCs are. You make it sound like an Amberite should worry for nothing - but not in any other RPG have I ever had players so afraid for their own character's mortality.

I have other questions and points but this is enough for now.

I suggest you start them in different threads, because this is going to be a huge mess, and several of your questions are going to get lost in the hustle.

//Panjumanju

[TristramEvans]

Isn't the Pundit's Lords of Olympus game a revision of the Amber rules? Don't know how radically different it is beyond the setting, but might be worth a look as its highly unlikely the original will ever see the light of day again, what with the author passing on and all.

[finarvyn]

Isn't the Pundit's Lords of Olympus game a revision of the Amber rules?

It is, but never sanctioned by the folks who own the rights to Amber Diceless.

Lords of Olympus is kind of what you might call a "clone" game in that it copies the original closely but not so closely as to cause a legal issue.

[finarvyn]

Welcome to the boards. Nice first post, but as Panjumanju suggested it will probably lead to a thread that ends badly. Too many topics squeezed into a small space, and most of these should be threads of their own in order to do them justice. Start a few, even if they duplicate something already discussed. Nothing wrong with a "start from scratch" thread on something done already, because we may have different folks posting now than they did when the other one was created.

Thoughts on your thoughts:

1. We have not seen any indication that an Amber 2E is on the horizon. When they owned the rights Guardians of Order was really into the project, but once the rights got transferred to Diceless by Design they have done little except sell PDFs. What they have done, however, is officially authorize and sanction Lords of Gossamer and Shadow, which may be the closest thing we get to an Amber 2E.

2. Erick said that all of the Attributes are equal, and I believe him. If one or another is overvalued or undervalued, then either the GM does not understand how to use them correctly or he isn't trying.

3. Depends upon what you are trying to accomplish. Zelazny's Amber books have very little sorcery in them, so replicating an Amber campaign with lots of sorcery would change the style of the campaign. Of course, many folks on the web have offered some fine alterations to sorcery and like them better than Erick's version. This would make a great thread.

4. I like your 10-15 point solution to Shape Shifting, and have used a similar version for years. All it does is give a Chaos form and a Human form, and allows use of Logrus. No cool special effects otherwise.

5. Real and unreal are from the perspective of Amberites and those of the Courts of Chaos. As my campaigns are based on those two groups of characters, I feel no need to change. If I was to base a campaign in a Shadow world, I probably would alter my vocabulary as you suggest.

6. There has been a lot of discussion on the 'net about this. Many feel that Erick over-rated Amberites in this way, compared to what you can find in the books.

Again, welcome to the boards!

[jibbajibba]

Hi,

The guys are probably right that this will get confused but I donlt think it will end badly. Generally the one thing that separates Amberites from the rest of the board is we are much more civil to each other however much we may disagree.

In answer to your questions

1. The guys have covered it but the rights are there and someone owns them. it is not beyond belief to think that they may eventually produce something or more likely sell the rights to someone else.

2. The problem is deeper than you suggest. Firstly Warfare mixes Martial skills and strategy. It only does this because Benedict is a master of both. If Zelazny had a character who was weak in combat but a master of strategy then the skills woudl be split. Now to have martial arts spearate from other forms of combat is to not understand how these things work. Again this hinges on Gerard being strong but slow which is just one character. I mainly stress Strength as how much damage you can take. If you talk about it like Hit points it becomes more appealing to people. Body works if you include all the physical stuff like climbing, athletics, etc but you are going to start crossing Stamina quite quickly.
So I would say split warfare and make Strength HP and raw muscle. Tables etc about what can be lifted are not really needed.

3. The sorcery rules I have less problems with than most I think they quite well copy Merlin's work.
Sorcery is a problem becuase Corwin doesn't use it becuase Zerlazny hadn't thought about it very much. Thus when he did think about it in the 2nd chronicles there woudl have been a need to retcon the whole first series if sorercy was as impactful there as it was in the 2nd (ie Sorcery lets you travel through shadow, zap stuff with raw power and is common in Chaos) for a start the Amberites would have been pulverised at the Abyss without at least some way to negate Sorcery.

4. Partial Powers are the way to go across the board (more flexible and more closely follows the books) and having a 'basic shapeshift' power that you learn as a precursor to assailing the Logrus seems to fit the game well.

5. I tend to agree with you. Once imagined a shadow denizen is as real as an Amberite although no physical match. Lorraine, Bill Roth, Julia, Jasra, and Victor all feel real to me.

6. Agreed but again depends on shadow. I could find a shadow were all were as srong as Amberites or one in which Amberites were all like superman. I agree that if we take a human normal as the average then Amberites are closer to them than they are to Superman. Especially true of intellect I see no rationale for saying all Amberites are super smart. Corwin seeks out Freud and plays chess with Jopin, Flora doesn't seems to be a genius and Benedict falls for any ruse you try on him however obvious so ...

welcome to the boards if you want to spin these off into new threads then happy to participate.

[Doughdee222]

Yeah, I thought about separating out the topics into different threads but then that too would look messy as I would have made a half dozen new ones. Just thought it would be simpler to keep it all under one.

[finarvyn]

I would have started a half dozen seperate threads because that way folks could respond or not to specific ideas. When all six are stuck together, you may find key ideas for one topic lost in the flurry of discussion for the other five.

[Panjumanju]

I would have started a half dozen seperate threads because that way folks could respond or not to specific ideas. When all six are stuck together, you may find key ideas for one topic lost in the flurry of discussion for the other five.

Or that the flurry doesn't even happen, when it should, because there's too many disparate subjects to respond to.

//Panjumanju

[RPGPundit]

Hi Everyone,
For the past few weeks I've been visiting this site and reading the 18 pages of Amber related threads. Instead of replying to each one separately I'll just compile a few notes on subjects which I can remember.

Well first, welcome to theRPGsite! And specifically to the Amber forum, its always great to get new people talking on here.
I hope you'll add some new threads of your own over time.

1. Haven't seen anything posted on this lately, is there any news or chance that there will be a second edition of the rules? Does DbD still own rights to it? Is the Gossamer game the closest we'll ever get to Amber 2E?

Unfortunately, its very unlikely there'll ever be a 2e.  DbD own the rights to the Amber RPG, but not to the Amber (setting) license itself; which seems to be stuck in limbo due to problems with Roger Zelazny's heirs.

Aside from LoGaS (which I'm sure will be quite good!), there's also Lords of Olympus; if I say so myself. If you haven't looked at it yet, you should check it out; there's a link in my sig.

My thoughts on the subject: Keep the rules 95% the same. But as a GM I'd like to see a few more definitions and "bones" to hang flesh from. For example how about rounding out the Artifact construction rules and giving more examples. What would a Flying Carpet or ring look like? Or a Monocle of X-Ray vision?
A sample Bestiary would be nice to include. What kind of stats or special powers would a dragon or a Medusa have? Alligators? Rhinos? Velociraptors? Specters/Wraiths/Ghosts? Sharks? Kraken?
To give the Strength attribute some needed "oomph" how about adding a chart describing what it can do. How much weight can be lifted per rank and number value? How far can one leap? How much is needed to kick down a thick wooden door, or an iron door? Etc.
How about adding an Advantages section to character generation? Ambidexterity, increased senses, etc.

Not all of these are there, but you should really take a look at Lords of Olympus.

3. I would like to see a couple alternative forms of Sorcery. The base system is fine (although the time it takes to cast spells seems a bit much.) How about one that simulates GURPS? IE. "I have lots of small to medium sized spells and can cast them quickly any number of times until my energy runs out." Or an "Element Master" character: "I can do anything with fire. Create it, control it, cast fireballs, make a wall, blast a whole area, breath out a cone..." Or one that simulates Harry Potter World.

Again, check out Lords of Olympus!

RPGPundit

[Jason D]

1. Haven't seen anything posted on this lately, is there any news or chance that there will be a second edition of the rules? Does DbD still own rights to it? Is the Gossamer game the closest we'll ever get to Amber 2E?

Here's the situation, as best I understand it:

Diceless by Design have the rights to the existing ADRP. They can reprint it and sell .pdfs. They can license Erick's system, sans the Amber intellectual property.

I do not know if they have the rights to the intellectual properties, which would be required for a 2nd edition, but I've discussed the matter with a member of Zelazny's estate who implied that it would take a new contract.

I know of at least three companies who've tried to get the rights from Zelazny's estate for a new game, and had little traction.

A sample Bestiary would be nice to include. What kind of stats or special powers would a dragon or a Medusa have? Alligators? Rhinos? Velociraptors? Specters/Wraiths/Ghosts? Sharks? Kraken?

I wrote up some sample creatures for Shadow Knight, and included some in Lords of Gossamer & Shadow, but the biggest problem is that they really should be balanced against the group. Another question is whether to create them as characters, or as creatures. Perhaps a more expansive creature book would include multiple versions of creatures, written up in either fashion, and a few different "toughness" versions.

To give the Strength attribute some needed "oomph" how about adding a chart describing what it can do. How much weight can be lifted per rank and number value? How far can one leap? How much is needed to kick down a thick wooden door, or an iron door? Etc.

According to Erick, at one point, R. Talsorian Games was going to publish Amber, and there was editorial insistence to include just such a chart. Erick balked at it, and it was one of the things that caused the project to move elsewhere, eventually being self-published.

So to say the original author of the system is against such a chart is an understatement.

How about adding an Advantages section to character generation? Ambidexterity, increased senses, etc.

Here is a question: what do those do? If one has Ambidexterity, for example, how does that affect Warfare? Does it mean an extra attack, or does it somehow equate to a bump in Rank if fighting someone with only one weapon?

These kinds of things tend to, in my experience, push the game towards a crunchier form of play that, if anything, is the opposite of the thrust of the rules. No pun intended.

(And on a personal note, I've fenced and done kendo one- and two-handed and found it's not the huge advantage it is made out to be.)

2. There was an interesting thread on Martial Arts and Strength Vs. Warfare.
My 2 cents: Warfare is already overvalued so keep MA under Strength. As someone said the problem seems to rest on calling the attribute "Strength." How about calling it "Body" or otherwise enlarging the definition to include Dexterity/Agility and general wiriness. That way one can describe characters such as Bruce Lee, Royce Gracie or a professional dancer with the same attribute. That would make them feel better about placing MAs skills as "Strength."

I can't remember the page number, but in one spot in the rules, Erick contradicts himself and puts all hand-to-hand armed combat under Strength, instead of under Warfare. It's not a typo, but instead I think was something he fiddled with over the course of the game's development.

3. I would like to see a couple alternative forms of Sorcery. The base system is fine (although the time it takes to cast spells seems a bit much.) How about one that simulates GURPS? IE. "I have lots of small to medium sized spells and can cast them quickly any number of times until my energy runs out." Or an "Element Master" character: "I can do anything with fire. Create it, control it, cast fireballs, make a wall, blast a whole area, breath out a cone..." Or one that simulates Harry Potter World.

There are tons of variant sorcery systems on the web, or at least there used to be. Despite its quirks, though, the one from the book is reasonably close to what Merlin described spellcasting as, though I suspect Zelazny would have tied sorcery more into the Pattern or Logrus than making it as agnostic as did Erick.

5. I think we should move away from describing Shadow worlds as "unreal". Shadow beings can kill Amberites, and that's "real" enough. The situation more closely resembles "First World" and "Third World" nations. Yes, First World can feel smug and superior to Third World natives, but those natives can still rob you, kidnap you and kill you.

I've never seen "unreal" used as a descriptor for Shadows. Just "less real" to describe their relation to Amber.  

6. Similarly I would downplay Erick Wujcik's insistence on Amberites being vastly superior to shadow folk. Yes, they are superior, as noted they are somewhere above Olympic athletes. But if an Amberite turns a corner and finds ten Sorcerers, or ten gangsters with shot guns and Tommy guns, or a Seal team waiting to kill them, he should begin to sweat. If nothing else this would help make creating interesting encounters easier.

I think this is a common misperception people take away from the rules. In terms of the Attributes, Amberites are vastly superior to Shadow folk, but the question is more how vast is the gap. The laundry list of abilities possessed by the top-ranked character is probably the biggest issue... by showing what someone can do when their Attribute is somewhere in the 100s (1st Rank amongst the Amberties and/or Chaosians) it tends to imply that everyone can do those things.

[Evermasterx]

According to Erick, at one point, R. Talsorian Games was going to  publish Amber, and there was editorial insistence to include just such a  chart. Erick balked at it, and it was one of the things that caused the  project to move elsewhere, eventually being self-published.

Erick, I love you!

[Panjumanju]

According to Erick, at one point, R. Talsorian Games was going to publish Amber, and there was editorial insistence to include just such a chart. Erick balked at it, and it was one of the things that caused the project to move elsewhere, eventually being self-published.

Thank you for this story. Not gonna' lie - you've kinda made my day.

//Panjumanju

[Doughdee222]

Okay, thanks for the replies.

I guess my problem is that I'm still too wedded to old style gaming. I grew up on AD&D, Gamma World, Star Frontiers, Call of C'Thulhu, Hero, GURPS and a few others. I'm used to seeing lots of numbers and things spelled out concretely: large lists of spells, items, whole catalogs of monsters etc. Studying that stuff helps put it all in perspective. I know what a 5th or 10th level beast can do. I know what a Sathar with a laser rifle can do. I know how powerful a villain's 7-dice fire strike is.
But Amber with its squishiness takes a while to get used to. So I use a chaosite in demon form as a foe. As he is he's not much of a challenge. But I arm him with a Double Damage axe and a shield Resistant to Firearms... How much tougher is he? Hmmmm... Maybe I better raise his End to (10) and Warfare to (20) and give him a few Power Words. Against a starting Amberite is he still an easy chump or a challenge? It's difficult to get a feel for that.

Concerning Advantages Jdurall asked: Here is a question: what do those do?
After I had posted I sat back and thought longer about that. In other games one could write up a clear benefit to the Advantage. But in Amber, those things really are just additional color to the character. Interesting but, so what? Similar to the way any skills are allowed: pile on all the college degrees you want, it's just more color.

I see no one liked my idea for a Strength chart. I dunno, but I see such a chart as quite handy. A PC wants to pick up a motorcycle and heave it thirty yards at a target. Or a PC picks up a 20 foot long dining table and uses it as a huge club. Or a PC tries to rip a car's door off, or even roll over a car. Or a PC wants to wield a 2-handed weapon in each hand, with no penalty. Or a PC wants to wrestle a bear to the ground. At what point do these acts become plausible? Base Rank? (10)? (30)? (70)? Some hint would be nice. Champions/Hero provides such a chart. I don't think it would be so onerous if ADRP did too. Maybe with an accompanying note on sliding the scale left or right depending on the tone of the campaign.
(Of course this is just to be consistent between characters and play sessions. If different characters try similar maneuvers I'd like the results to be predictable. I can just imagine myself allowing something in one session then disallowing it in another despite the Attribute being the same or higher.)

Enough for now. Thanks for listening.

[Panjumanju]

I see no one liked my idea for a Strength chart. I dunno, but I see such a chart as quite handy. A PC wants to pick up a motorcycle and heave it thirty yards at a target. Or a PC picks up a 20 foot long dining table and uses it as a huge club. Or a PC tries to rip a car's door off, or even roll over a car. Or a PC wants to wield a 2-handed weapon in each hand, with no penalty. Or a PC wants to wrestle a bear to the ground. At what point do these acts become plausible? Base Rank? (10)? (30)? (70)? Some hint would be nice. Champions/Hero provides such a chart. I don't think it would be so onerous if ADRP did too.

You make it sound like someone is fiendishly withholding a Strength Reference Chart from you in order to make your life more difficult.

But you're really thinking about it in entirely the wrong way. This is not Dungeons & Dragons. There is no "two handed penalty" to be negated by such-and-such. It's a completely different game.

Amber's numbers for Attributes, as written, are only relevant in regards to how much was paid for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. ranks. Beyond that they only service to illustrate the relative gap between ranks, act as ladders for advancement, and provide some insight into the character for the GM.

If you're struggling to find out what number of Strength the Hulk has, you're missing the point.

//Panjumanju