TheRPGSite

Some people hate that cover. I've heard of people often mistaking that the woman in the middle as some mystic chick named "Amber", only to be 'disappointed' (although why I couldn't imagine) that she was not a part of the game.

Personally, I loved the cover. It was strange and mystical - a fictitious role-call of infinite possibilities as presented on trump cards. It was one of the first things that attracted me to the game.

Thoughts?

//Panjumanju

?  What cover?

Well, for me, the Amber cover is the French one (http://www.legrog.org/visuels/couvertures/191.jpg), so...

Thank you for linking to this. I had only ever seen the English one: http://www.cardboardrepublic.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/amber-drpg.jpg

Do you prefer one or the other?

//Panjumanju

I knew the french one was different but never saw it so thanks Croaker.

I think I actually like it better though I never had a problem with the english one.

I only bought the system initially becuase it was diceless and I was collecting game systems at the time and thought that wa a cool idea. didn't play itill some years later. Then actually read it without thinking much about the cover since I was getting ready to join a game.

The US one didn;t seem to me to capture the game all that well.

I love the cover from Lords of Gosamer and Shadow though. That is a cover that can drag you to buy a game.

The French ADRP cover looks a lot like the French Tarot deck cover. Is that the same artwork?

Quote from: finarvyn;655488The French ADRP cover looks a lot like the French Tarot deck cover. Is that the same artwork?

Yes, it's by Florence Magnin.

To think that, at one time, they gave the Tarot Deck for free...

Quote from: Croaker;655738To think that, at one time, they gave the Tarot Deck for free...

Seriously? I never heard that they did that.

I paid for mine directly from Erick. (Plus I paid for the "English translation" that he never got around to making. Pre-ordered both that and Rebma. Guess I was a sucker in giving Erick my money... :))

Quote from: finarvyn;655859Seriously? I never heard that they did that.

I paid for mine directly from Erick.

Are we talking about some kind of Amber-specific Tarot Deck of which I was previously unaware?

//Panjumanju

The cover never really bothered me - can't say its great can't say its bad. I do prefer the French one though. And yes, The LoG&S one is pretty good too.

Quote from: Panjumanju;656304Are we talking about some kind of Amber-specific Tarot Deck of which I was previously unaware?

//Panjumanju

Indeed. Check it out.
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/amber/

Quote from: Panjumanju;656304Are we talking about some kind of Amber-specific Tarot Deck of which I was previously unaware?

Overall, I wasn't that impressed. While the cards had names which were Amber specific, I didn't get the feeling that the artwork really reflected the characters of the books.

Plus, the directions were all in French and I can't read French. The best I could do is use a book in English about a generic Trump deck and combine that with the cards from the French deck.

I would have been a lot happier if Erick had taken the trumps from the rulebooks, had them colorized, and made into a deck for sale. I like the rulebook art better than the French deck art.

Quote from: finarvyn;656465Overall, I wasn't that impressed. While the cards had names which were Amber specific, I didn't get the feeling that the artwork really reflected the characters of the books.

Plus, the directions were all in French and I can't read French. The best I could do is use a book in English about a generic Trump deck and combine that with the cards from the French deck.

I would have been a lot happier if Erick had taken the trumps from the rulebooks, had them colorized, and made into a deck for sale. I like the rulebook art better than the French deck art.

I agree completely. I was so psyched when I heard "Amber" and "Tarot" in the same product description, that my mind completely glossed over the whole French aspect. I went looking for images, and was sadly disappointed. Not because it is 'en français'. I just hated the artwork. On the upside, searching for it is what brought me to aeclectic.net, which has proven to be an excellent resource for Trump inspiration.

Quote from: finarvyn;656465I would have been a lot happier if Erick had taken the trumps from the rulebooks, had them colorized, and made into a deck for sale. I like the rulebook art better than the French deck art.

I'm on two minds on this.

On the one hand, I like florence magnin's art better. On the other hand, I think th original illustrations are truer to the source material.

Yeah, its not particularly good as a Tarot, either.

Quote from: RPGPundit;658813Yeah, its not particularly good as a Tarot, either.

In what sense? Because it is a Marseille-style deck? I'm a complete novice with Tarot, so I would be interested to hear more of your thoughts on this. Do you usually prefer Rider-Waite, or Thoth decks?

I've been working on learning Tarot. My Wife is quite good with readings and gave me a set as a gift. The Tarot of Light and Shadow.

I dig the US cover.  I could take or leave all the cards floating around, but I love her expression of placidity, even sleepiness, in conjunction with the obviously weird surroundings.

I'd like to point out that it's not the "US Cover" (as much as it is a game from the United States of America) as much as the "English Cover". This was the cover released to the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, Australia, and other countries.

//Panjumnaju

Both version, english and french, look great.

That said, I think the french version is more classical fantasy in style, while the english version is more "weird shit happens on this game", which I think it's more appropiate for Amber (I haven't played the game nor read the novels, so I'm speaking based on what I know from reviews).

Quote from: jibbajibba;654625I love the cover from Lords of Gosamer and Shadow though. That is a cover that can drag you to buy a game.

I agree, that cover is gorgeous. I even have it as my desktop background at the moment.:D

Quote from: Sydius Mendoza;658895In what sense? Because it is a Marseille-style deck? I'm a complete novice with Tarot, so I would be interested to hear more of your thoughts on this. Do you usually prefer Rider-Waite, or Thoth decks?

I've been working on learning Tarot. My Wife is quite good with readings and gave me a set as a gift. The Tarot of Light and Shadow.

Just in the sense that most thematic-tarot decks are not particularly useful, they tend to demolish the actual symbolism of the cards.

Marseille decks are quite good, if you like old-fashioned. If you want something less medieval, then the Thoth deck is the way to go.

(Rider-Waites aren't awful, but they have some flaws; intentional flaws that Waite put in there because was sort of a dick)

RPGPundit

I have the Aquarian Tarot I use for Amber sometimes. Its got a suitably 70's in tone and is basically a refresh of Rider-Waite without Pamela Smith's 2nd rate design skills.

For most Amber games I use my own Tarot deck desgined speficially for Amber and add the PCs as unsuited court cards. Its not a professional tarot deck by any stretch but it looks nice :)
For one of my early web games I build a tarot reader the players could use online using the deck for their characters was pretty cgood but now lost to the ether

Now I had the advantage of some reasonable photoshop skills and my cousin who added a lot of orignal art of PCs but generally I can take a character description and tract down some decent art from the 100,000 or so images I have stored on my PC

From how I understand the Trumps, they're not really like Tarot at all save in the most superficial sense. In my game, they never have minor arcana (pip cards, ie. "5 of Wands" or that sort of thing) and it seems that one's Trump collection can grow or shrink as time goes by.  Trumps are less a "deck" and more a "collection".

Or rather, less like a Tarot Deck and more like a Magic: The Gathering Deck.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;661374From how I understand the Trumps, they're not really like Tarot at all save in the most superficial sense. In my game, they never have minor arcana (pip cards, ie. "5 of Wands" or that sort of thing) and it seems that one's Trump collection can grow or shrink as time goes by.  Trumps are less a "deck" and more a "collection".

Or rather, less like a Tarot Deck and more like a Magic: The Gathering Deck.

RPGPundit

I definitely agree. My curiosity was less of a gaming thing and more of an interest in the subject for it's own sake. Although I will say that the things I learn as I go along give me good ideas for ADRPG.

Quote from: RPGPundit;661374From how I understand the Trumps, they're not really like Tarot at all save in the most superficial sense. In my game, they never have minor arcana (pip cards, ie. "5 of Wands" or that sort of thing) and it seems that one's Trump collection can grow or shrink as time goes by.  Trumps are less a "deck" and more a "collection".

Or rather, less like a Tarot Deck and more like a Magic: The Gathering Deck.

RPGPundit

I designed an entire deck because a couple of times Corwin used a deck to throw a reading its also a great plot tool the player throws a reading I them use that to foreshadow events in the game.

The cards I replaced were the Court cards who are the PCs. In my first efforts I actually tied PCs to suits which is an interesting exercise.
I don't know if Eric did it deliberately but
Cups = Psyche
Swords = Warfare
Staves = Stamina
Coins = Strength

Fits reasonably well with Tarot imagery.

Gerard = Prince of Coins - steady, reliable a little dull
Corwin = Prince of Staves - energetic, driven, never gives up
Benedict = Prince of Swords - masterful, intelligent but prone to anger
Brand = Prince of Cups - dreamer, secretive, calm

I am sure there are dozens of essays on this topic out on the web.

Quote from: jibbajibba;661852I designed an entire deck because a couple of times Corwin used a deck to throw a reading its also a great plot tool the player throws a reading I them use that to foreshadow events in the game.

The cards I replaced were the Court cards who are the PCs. In my first efforts I actually tied PCs to suits which is an interesting exercise.
I don't know if Eric did it deliberately but
Cups = Psyche
Swords = Warfare
Staves = Stamina
Coins = Strength

Fits reasonably well with Tarot imagery.

Gerard = Prince of Coins - steady, reliable a little dull
Corwin = Prince of Staves - energetic, driven, never gives up
Benedict = Prince of Swords - masterful, intelligent but prone to anger
Brand = Prince of Cups - dreamer, secretive, calm

I am sure there are dozens of essays on this topic out on the web.

The little one-off mentions of Corwin casting the cards is what really got me thinking about using Tarot for inspiration. I like your idea of having the option for a character to cast the cards. I had toyed with the idea of using the cards in game. Never able to come up with a way to do it that didn't feel like obvious dice substitutions, which just seems wrong in diceless. I love your solution! It gives the player choice, and you can either rationalize it as the player subconsious working on shadow in some sort of self-fulfilling prophecy as it were, or chalk it up to the "mystery of the trumps". Great stuff

I just chucked a coupel of images on flickr hopefully I can post them here
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8124/9020169337_10be838690_o.jpg)(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5337/9022396964_949433aecc_o.jpg)(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2820/9020169541_87c6dfc081_o.jpg)

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5337/9020169623_de04a9edf2_o.jpg)(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3747/9020276715_4a8964e8ae_o.jpg)(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2856/9022503768_4134ebb4c7_o.jpg)

Quote from: jibbajibba;661881I just chucked a coupel of images on flickr hopefully I can post them here
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8124/9020169337_10be838690_o.jpg)(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5337/9022396964_949433aecc_o.jpg)(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2820/9020169541_87c6dfc081_o.jpg)

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5337/9020169623_de04a9edf2_o.jpg)(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3747/9020276715_4a8964e8ae_o.jpg)(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2856/9022503768_4134ebb4c7_o.jpg)

Nice. Did I understand correctly, are these yours?

Quote from: RPGPundit;664100Nice. Did I understand correctly, are these yours?

Yup.
For the major arcana I have crimped images of the web so some copyright issues probably.
The border and Pip cards I did myself (the basic cup is a free image from somewhere the pentacles and staves I just drew, the basic sword is an actual sword you can buy from some fantasy sword shop that I just photo-treated a bit). the Court Cards, for PCs, are artwork from my cousin I just dropped into frames, some of them a a bit sketchy these are two of the best.

A tarotician like yourself will probably object to the use of precise defintions on the pip cards but I was trying to make it usable by non-practionioners so meh :)

Few more. as you can see I tried to keep standard Tarot imagery but took a few liberties like using a tree / Ygg for the World for in game reasons

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5549/9088776573_9e3fa9de81_o.jpg)(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5510/9088784835_874289402b_o.jpg)(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2828/9091006550_9be393c275_o.jpg)
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5454/9090949656_9511daf9a2_o.jpg)(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5341/9022504102_0c40ef83c9_o.jpg)(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5460/9020275843_9cc9172b41_o.jpg)

Nice! :)

Quote from: jibbajibba;664117A tarotician like yourself will probably object to the use of precise defintions on the pip cards but I was trying to make it usable by non-practionioners so meh :)

Well, the best tarot deck ever made, the Thoth deck, has keywords on the minor arcana. They're very limited in utility (like baby training wheels), and used for too long become counterproductive, but there they are.

The bigger issue I have with yours is that the keywords you're using seem to be wrong, or at least extremely odd.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;667009Well, the best tarot deck ever made, the Thoth deck, has keywords on the minor arcana. They're very limited in utility (like baby training wheels), and used for too long become counterproductive, but there they are.

The bigger issue I have with yours is that the keywords you're using seem to be wrong, or at least extremely odd.

RPGPundit

Wrong ... hmmm.... I took my meanings from my tarot books, mostly Rider-Waite but Wikipedia has the Rider waite interpretations to hand.....

So take Ace of Swords -
The card indicates decisive ability and cutting through confusion, taking a radical decision or standpoint and the ability to see through deception, and expose it.
I label this Perspicacity which is a pretty decent 1 word synonym.
 
4 of pentacles refers to a lover of material wealth, one who hoards things of value with no prospect of sharing. In contrast, when the Four of Pentacles is in reverse it warns against the tendency of being a spendthrift

I label this Avarice again a pretty decent 1 word synonym I think.

10 of swords
In its upright or positive light, the ten of swords represents absolute destruction, being pinned down by a multitude of things or situations. The person lying on the ground, defeated and bleeding, may also represent a feeling of hopelessness and being trapped by emotions or mental anguish, since swords represent strife and the mind.

I label it Destruction .... reasonable I think

5 of Swords
The figure in the foreground suggests victory, potency, and ample preparation or confidence. Also suggests unwilling or unnecessary contributions from losing parties. Also, is the defeat card in the deck. The ragged-looking sky implies a torn celestial plane.

Now here I have to say I might have been more contentious as the card itself is a mixed message. The classic Rider-Waite image being the guy collection swords as his enemies slope off in the background. Sucess for him but defeat for them.
I went with the Defeat reading because the app I wrote to do readings could only deal cards face up. In order to deal reversed cards I would need to have saved all the images reversed and it would have made the app hard to use so I drew on the negative connotation here to give the overall deck a range of good and bad but with a hint toward the bad as at the end it was a game device to try and foreshadow dramatic tension.


So overall ... I would defend my choice of keywords.

I always rather liked the game's English cover, finding it evocative of the world's atmosphere.  It is no more or less close to Zelazny's written work than the Avon paperbacks' covers, which were popular.  

The discussion of using Tarot in Amber is of particular interest, since a friend completed a tarot deck with full original art for a full deck, not just trumps.  I recall the illustrations in Amber Role Playing having some tarot type imagery, but not actual rules for using them.

Quote from: jibbajibba;667131Wrong ... hmmm.... I took my meanings from my tarot books, mostly Rider-Waite but Wikipedia has the Rider waite interpretations to hand.....

So take Ace of Swords -
The card indicates decisive ability and cutting through confusion, taking a radical decision or standpoint and the ability to see through deception, and expose it.
I label this Perspicacity which is a pretty decent 1 word synonym.
 
4 of pentacles refers to a lover of material wealth, one who hoards things of value with no prospect of sharing. In contrast, when the Four of Pentacles is in reverse it warns against the tendency of being a spendthrift

I label this Avarice again a pretty decent 1 word synonym I think.

10 of swords
In its upright or positive light, the ten of swords represents absolute destruction, being pinned down by a multitude of things or situations. The person lying on the ground, defeated and bleeding, may also represent a feeling of hopelessness and being trapped by emotions or mental anguish, since swords represent strife and the mind.

I label it Destruction .... reasonable I think

5 of Swords
The figure in the foreground suggests victory, potency, and ample preparation or confidence. Also suggests unwilling or unnecessary contributions from losing parties. Also, is the defeat card in the deck. The ragged-looking sky implies a torn celestial plane.

Now here I have to say I might have been more contentious as the card itself is a mixed message. The classic Rider-Waite image being the guy collection swords as his enemies slope off in the background. Sucess for him but defeat for them.
I went with the Defeat reading because the app I wrote to do readings could only deal cards face up. In order to deal reversed cards I would need to have saved all the images reversed and it would have made the app hard to use so I drew on the negative connotation here to give the overall deck a range of good and bad but with a hint toward the bad as at the end it was a game device to try and foreshadow dramatic tension.


So overall ... I would defend my choice of keywords.

Waite was a member of the Order of the Golden Dawn; however, the order prohibited any of its members from revealing their secrets (even, theoretically, the hebrew alphabet; which wasn't so much a secret as an alphabet).  So Waite was in a pickle when he made his deck; he couldn't actually write the accurate stuff about the hermetic attributes of the cards, and chose instead of obfuscate (a crime for which Crowley later nicknamed him "Dead Waite").

By the time Crowley produced the Thoth deck (near the end of his life, 1939-43) he was beholden to no one, and so was able to produce a deck and book that basically revealed everything.

Now, most titles or keywords are not particularly useful in readings except as sorts of "training wheels", even then they can sometimes be counterproductive; but there are titles and keywords nevertheless (which BOTH Waite AND Crowley accepted and worked with, but which Crowley printed accurately and Waite did not, choosing to make up bullshit instead).

The Aces are just the roots of their respective elements; they represent, if anything, the start of new movements in their elemental sphere, and have no shorter keyword as such.  The Ace of Swords would be "The root of the powers of Air".

The 4 of Disks is about the creation of stability; which can also sometimes lead to stagnation if ill-dignified. Its title is "Power".

The 10 of Swords represents the utter stagnation of the mental faculties, when you can't let go of something long finished, like "beating a dead horse". Its title is "Ruin".

The 5 of Swords is in fact "Defeat", because it represents a mental effort that has come to naught through lack of commitment; being unable to put together enough mental unity to create stable momentum in your plans, so you end up snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, as it were.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;668435Waite was a member of the Order of the Golden Dawn; however, the order prohibited any of its members from revealing their secrets (even, theoretically, the hebrew alphabet; which wasn't so much a secret as an alphabet).  So Waite was in a pickle when he made his deck; he couldn't actually write the accurate stuff about the hermetic attributes of the cards, and chose instead of obfuscate (a crime for which Crowley later nicknamed him "Dead Waite").

By the time Crowley produced the Thoth deck (near the end of his life, 1939-43) he was beholden to no one, and so was able to produce a deck and book that basically revealed everything.

Now, most titles or keywords are not particularly useful in readings except as sorts of "training wheels", even then they can sometimes be counterproductive; but there are titles and keywords nevertheless (which BOTH Waite AND Crowley accepted and worked with, but which Crowley printed accurately and Waite did not, choosing to make up bullshit instead).

The Aces are just the roots of their respective elements; they represent, if anything, the start of new movements in their elemental sphere, and have no shorter keyword as such.  The Ace of Swords would be "The root of the powers of Air".

The 4 of Disks is about the creation of stability; which can also sometimes lead to stagnation if ill-dignified. Its title is "Power".

The 10 of Swords represents the utter stagnation of the mental faculties, when you can't let go of something long finished, like "beating a dead horse". Its title is "Ruin".

The 5 of Swords is in fact "Defeat", because it represents a mental effort that has come to naught through lack of commitment; being unable to put together enough mental unity to create stable momentum in your plans, so you end up snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, as it were.

RPGPundit

Not everyone thinks Crowley is the being the middle and the end.
Your tarot skills are not in question but they come from the crowley traddition.
A lot of people thought Crowley was an egotistical cunt.

So your claim effectively stems from the fact that Waite's deck produced in 1910 (?) is deemed less authoritative by Crowely fans than his deck produced 30years later.
Meh......
My study of the tarot is limited to a few years at high school and a bit at Uni as part of my degree. My take is that it references the same free association concepts that Jung thought were referenced in Psychoanalysis or in riding a train through Russia and trying to read the Cyrilic place names.
In short in doesn't matter what is on the cards so long as something is on the cards. As as a Game tool is pretty decent I reckon and it looks nice :)

And again i woudl say that the Toth Deck is not the greatest ever Tarot Deck. I would actually say that any serious practicioner would create their own deck using their own imagery but again YMMV.

However, I will not directly attack your religion so I bow to your faith on the subject.

Quote from: jibbajibba;668439Not everyone thinks Crowley is the being the middle and the end.
Your tarot skills are not in question but they come from the crowley traddition.
A lot of people thought Crowley was an egotistical cunt.

The latter is true (that many people thought that, in any case) but its really not relevant here, because I'm not actually talking about a position depending on Crowley; I'm taking the position depending on the Golden Dawn. Crowley was a minor member in the GD (in his youth), whereas the older Waite was a major player there.  So the point has nothing to do with Crowley, it has to do with the fact that Waite explicitly accepted the GD-attributions, and yet felt he could not publicly present these in his deck or book, and chose to play a shell game with the public instead.
Crowley is only at all relevant to this discussion because, many decades later, he DID publish the GD-attributions, which were the ones that Waite actually worked with but did not publish.

QuoteSo your claim effectively stems from the fact that Waite's deck produced in 1910 (?) is deemed less authoritative by Crowely fans than his deck produced 30years later.

No. My claim stems from the fact that Waites' deck produced in 1910 is less authoritative from the point of view of the Magical Order and system that Waite participated in one form or another for most of his magical career.
In other words, its that Waite didn't actually believe in what he had published with his book and deck.

QuoteHowever, I will not directly attack your religion so I bow to your faith on the subject.

This is in no sense a question of religious faith but of historical record.

RPGPundit