TheRPGSite

So Corwin's little trick in "the Guns of Avalon" is brilliant. Its not so brilliant when every pc tries to imitate it.

The problem is it all seems very bloody reasonable: if Corwin did it, shouldn't anyone else be able to? Spend enough time (and in shadow you have all the time you need), and you should be able to find a Nuclear Bomb that would work in Amber.

How do you as a GM deal with that?

RPGPundit

Personally, I say "Well, yeah ... if Corwin was telling the truth about what happened then you should be able to do the same thing."  Then, when they try, it doesn't work.

I have not, as of yet, encountered any players who were shocked at the concept that Corwin might not be 100% trustworthy.  I keep hoping that I will, as I think they'd be a lot of fun.

That's not what he's saying. What he's saying is that assuming that Amber has an underlying physics enough to let something explode, it should be possible to experiment and find it and use it yourself. That the amber novels give the players the idea just means that its no longer novel when it crops up.

And for the record, I do not believe for an instant that it really was jeweler's rouge he used to concoct his Amber gunpowder. I believe that he had something, because the Guns of Avalon isn't something you just make up abnd have it stay believable much past the listener's first trip to Amber. But whatever it was, I doubt he'd give the power of it away so easily.

In a game I'd let them try, and try, and try. Meanwhile other players would be running their games. Eventually they'd discover gunpowder, but who knows what the other players would have been up to by then, and they probably would have gotten bored long ago. They could use time tricks in Shadows to alleviate this somewhat, but considering that they have to test every substance in a Shadow to be sure that Shadow doesn't have something, it wouldn't alleviate it much. I'm not sure how, but I'd possibly base the time it takes on their Psyche.

Meanwhile, I'd be trying to quickly come up with a Power for it. Maybe called Pattern Science, and have it useful for doing scientific stuff in Amber and the nearby shadows. They could purchase the Power as usual whenever Advancement Points are awarded, and they can choose to take Bad Stuff as usual. The Bad Stuff in this instance would very likely be some sort of spy unless that isn't feasible. It would both allow them to get it, and provide for the opportunity for someone else to get it, thus being a true Arms Race rather than just "yippee! I've got guns!"

When someone does get Gunpowder, I'd treat it as being a hefty bonus to the War whenever they're in a position to use it.

Quote from: James McMurrayThat's not what he's saying. What he's saying is that assuming that Amber has an underlying physics enough to let something explode, it should be possible to experiment and find it and use it yourself. That the amber novels give the players the idea just means that its no longer novel when it crops up.

Sorry ... I wasn't clear.  What I'm saying is that, in many of my games, Amber's physics do not allow explosions.  What Corwin did was Not Natural for that place, and no amount of experimentation trying to find a natural compound to do the same thing will be fruitful.

With that clarification, I hope the idea is clear.

I like the idea of a Pattern Science power, though.  That'd be funky, and would also be a nice way for me to charge points (and provide value) to all those folks who want to come from high-tech shadows and use insane materials technology to give themselves cross-shadow advantage.

Well um, remember that Corwin is not just talking to some random dude, or to you in the audience; he's talking to his son. He might give away the secret of the guns of avalon to Merlin in order to give Merlin an edge should the situation ever be required and Corwin isn't around.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditWell um, remember that Corwin is not just talking to some random dude, or to you in the audience; he's talking to his son. He might give away the secret of the guns of avalon to Merlin in order to give Merlin an edge should the situation ever be required and Corwin isn't around.

>nod, nod<  He might.  There's plenty of justification if one wants to argue that Corwin was playing it straight.  As you've said, by that time he was at a place in his life, and talking to a person, who he would want to be straight with.

There's also plenty of justification if one wants to argue that Corwin was lying through his teeth ... after all, he was talking to his son, and probably wanted to put the nicest possible spin on events.  "Oh ... how'd I take over Amber?  (Must not talk about pact with cthulhu, must not talk about pact with cthulhu)  Well ... uh ... yeah, I just happened to find some gunpowder.  Just one of those things.  Lucky me!  Remember son, good things come to those who act from their conscience."

The Zelazny books permit of many different interpretations.  It's part of their charm.

I'm so with Tony on this one.  

One of my peeves about convention games is how utterly fucking easy it is to get gunpowder.  I know that con games have to work on a compressed timescale, but in canon gunpowder is supposed to be rare.  At convention games, the rule is that at least one PC will get gunpowder in the 2-month scale of the game and the exception is that no one gets gunpowder.  Bah.  If it were that easy, then how come Corwin was the only one of the elders to do it?

Quote from: Lee ShortI'm so with Tony on this one.  

One of my peeves about convention games is how utterly fucking easy it is to get gunpowder.  I know that con games have to work on a compressed timescale, but in canon gunpowder is supposed to be rare.  At convention games, the rule is that at least one PC will get gunpowder in the 2-month scale of the game and the exception is that no one gets gunpowder.  Bah.  If it were that easy, then how come Corwin was the only one of the elders to do it?

Hmm. I've enjoyed the exception in my convention games (both playing and gming.) Is there something in the con game blurbs that warns of this gunpowder event?

Quote from: RPGPunditSo Corwin's little trick in "the Guns of Avalon" is brilliant. Its not so brilliant when every pc tries to imitate it.

The problem is it all seems very bloody reasonable: if Corwin did it, shouldn't anyone else be able to? Spend enough time (and in shadow you have all the time you need), and you should be able to find a Nuclear Bomb that would work in Amber.

How do you as a GM deal with that?

That's a darn good question I haven't seen on other forums. Kudos.

There are several options one might like to choose from:

You could say that Corwin is telling it straight, but that the working gunpowder is a part of Corwin's legend since he is the one to discover it. As the 'father of gunpowder' it is only Corwin (or his line) that can point you at the stuff. This is taking the principle of Creation as Zelazny tosses it around and applying it to the meta-universe.

You could say that Gunpowder must be bought as part of your PC's powers. This respects the design of the Amber Diceless game: Real Threats cost real points. No player should complain when a Horde bought with points tears through an army 'found' in shadow. Likewise for gunpowder used to threaten amberites. Likewise for someone who wants a nuclear bomb. (Good luck with costing that last one.)

IMC, I often use a threshold I might refer to as "infinite shadow versus limited perceptions." The principle isn't so different from 'needle in a haystack.' If PCs want to find something in shadow so specialized that it negates a premise of Amber that lasted over two millennium, they are relying on sweat and good stuff more than precise personal perceptions. Or, to describe this another way: the PCs do not know any of the Real variables that Corwin was thinking and feeling when he found that place with that substance in that time----though you guess it had something to do with the original Avalon. Based on that data, you are sifting infinite shadow for a fluke causal event. Yes, you will find it. Yes, it might take a thousand years.

And I would explain that to the Players.

Quote from: RPGPunditWell um, remember that Corwin is not just talking to some random dude, or to you in the audience; he's talking to his son. He might give away the secret of the guns of avalon to Merlin in order to give Merlin an edge should the situation ever be required and Corwin isn't around.

That's a possibility, and if I wanted a player to have gunpowder I'd use that as a means of making it easy. They could somehow get the information out of Merlin, spend the points, and not have to worry about the time spent experimenting and engaging in serious Shadow Forging.

I don't want them to have it though, so I come from the opposite angle: Corwin was talking to an Amberite, with whom you must always be cagey. In addition, he was talking to a member of the Courts of Chaos. Even if he didn't mind Merlin having such powerful knowledge, he'd wouldn't want the Courts to have it. His son, despite and because of his ancestry, is too dangerous to allow with that sort of knowledge. Or in other words, hard work and lost time are the only routes to gunpowder (or worse) in my Amber.

Personally I've rearely seen players decide to go the gunpowerder route and it wouln't be too much of a problem to stop them.

First of all, they need a reason to want to use gupowerder in Amber. Outside fo some sort of throne war scenario that doesn't really happen very often.

Secondly they'd have to deal with the fact that some of Corwin's guns are still around and controlled by the crown. While this might give the PCs an incentive to find their own guns in order to even the odds a little, I find that it more often causes them to think a little higher.

Which brings us to my third point. In a game where the characters can just as easily start with a flight of dragons(or worse!) under their command, anyone who thinks that gunpowder is going to make them invincible is in for a very rude awakening.

Plus I've always assumed that Corwin's guns were effective more because they were unexpected than because they were unbeatable. Now that the potential for firearms is recognised by the Amberites it'll be a lot harder for the same trick to work again. Pcs need to be more inventive -  bombs, being a logical extension of the gunpowder tree, are not that inventive.

Quote from: ArrefHmm. I've enjoyed the exception in my convention games (both playing and gming.) Is there something in the con game blurbs that warns of this gunpowder event?

Actually, I should have been more specific.  I was really only thinking of the LARPish throne war-ish games.  

Most other games, you don't have the scope of action and/or in-character motivation.  

But it does seem that most of the time you'd want to get gunpowder, it's easy to do.  

QuoteYou could say that Gunpowder must be bought as part of your PC's powers. This respects the design of the Amber Diceless game: Real Threats cost real points. No player should complain when a Horde bought with points tears through an army 'found' in shadow. Likewise for gunpowder used to threaten amberites. Likewise for someone who wants a nuclear bomb. (Good luck with costing that last one.)

This is a great idea.  Really, why should gunpowder cost any less than, say, a Deadly Damage weapon?

Quote from: RPGPunditWell um, remember that Corwin is not just talking to some random dude, or to you in the audience; he's talking to his son.

RPGPundit

Even this is not clear, and there are multiple interpretations.  

Ostensibly, Corwin was talking to his son...but that doesn't mean his son was the real audience.  After all, the book got out somehow in many or most Amberverses.

This is neat -- I had a gut reaction, of "Well, obviously this is how it worked," but I have no illusions that there's one right answer. In fact this one doesn't fit the books well at all. I guess the thread just sparked an idea I liked so much that it was a gut feeling.

So, my thought was that this stuff came from Avalon, which no longer exists. How does a Shadow no longer exist, if there's infinite Shadows that are exactly the same except for, like, an atom that's in a different place?

Well, it was his Shadow of desire, but it had been destroyed. He's able to find a "New Avalon" that's close enough that he can still produce gunpowder, but the other things about it are not so good. So, maybe this is just my head being twisted from re-reading Nobilis recently, but I got this weird idea in my head of Corwin thinking:

 "I've been ruler of a land, and seen it destroyed. I can call back to that memory, use it to walk to a place like that, and do it again, only to Amber." Because, hey, if you can walk in Shadow to any place you can think of, sometimes the shit going on in your head matters quite a lot.

Like, I had this image in my head that that jeweler's rouge was something he only had because he was polishing up a piece of jewelry for someone he cared for, someone lost when the Shadow was destroyed. He throws it in the fireplace, *poof* it explodes where things can't explode.

Yeah, it doesn't really fit the canon. But I really like the idea that what you have to do to bend the rules in Amber is to bend yourself, badly. Just find your Shadow of Desire, the place you feel most at home in all the universe. Your home, in your heart. Then make sure it gets torn the fuck down. Congratulations, twist yourself, hurt yourself, suffer, and it turns out that an Amberite with a hole in their heart can bend the physics in Amber a bit.

Is it worth it? :) I dunno. I just like the idea that the Achilles' Heel of Amber is the Amberites themselves, not just in terms of "We might plot stuff that could destroy Amber", but "If we break ourselves enough, Amber itself might crack." Kind of a nasty little family legacy from Dworkin.

Hm. Now that I think about it, he gets his gunpowder-armed troops to Amber right about when the Black Road shows up, doesn't he?

Quote from: Sweeney"If we break ourselves enough, Amber itself might crack."

Oh, man, that is SWEET.

One way to deal with it would be the "Macgyver" solution.

When the old TV series "Macgyver" was written the people in charge got scientists to create actual tricks that Mac could do with simple things found around the house, except that when they showed him making an explosive (or whatever) they always left out one key ingrediant so that stupid kids at home wouldn't watch a show and them blow themselves up.

Using this philosophy, assume that Corwin has discovered something like a key State Secret and that that when he writes his story he's still wanting to keep things a secret. Assume that he's left something out.

After all, if Benedict couldn't find a way to make gunpowder work in Amber (and he's thousands of years old) we can assume that Corwin probably lucked into it and that the PCs aren't likely to have such success.

Quote from: TonyLBThere's also plenty of justification if one wants to argue that Corwin was lying through his teeth ... after all, he was talking to his son, and probably wanted to put the nicest possible spin on events.  "Oh ... how'd I take over Amber?

He's also slightly unhinged when he's telling his tale. He has just raced from one extreme of reality to the other, pausing only briefly to rewrite a new version of the universe en route, battling with evil siblings and losing the one sister he really cares about... Who knows how much of that stuff is merely a figment of his (legendary) imagination?

Quote from: CabHe's also slightly unhinged when he's telling his tale. He has just raced from one extreme of reality to the other, pausing only briefly to rewrite a new version of the universe en route, battling with evil siblings and losing the one sister he really cares about... Who knows how much of that stuff is merely a figment of his (legendary) imagination?

That's true... Unfortunately, when we want to look at canon and set up standards as such, we cannot assume that Corwin or even Merlin are outright lying or twisting the truth. Sure we can certainly interpret that it is THEIR perception, but Corwin's weapons are his, yet in Merlin's series, Rinaldo makes use of them to assassinate Caine (whether you assume Caine to be dead is another story covered somewhere else...)

Rinaldo, clearly not as ancient as Benedict has made use of Corwin's formula, or one of his own (does he ever reveal that? I can't recall specifically). Perhaps Benedict already has tried and succeeded, then realized something Corwin hasn't.

An easy way to by-pass the gunpowder in Amber issue: having steam-powered machines and steam-driven projectiles, etc.
"What? What do you mean water in Amber doesn't boil at 100 degrees celsius?"

Anyone who starts getting into issues of science with regard to Amber is going to have problems with me as a GM, unless their character has a scientific background and starts doing the research from first principles.  Basing assumptions on Earth science is a mistake.

Exactly, in which case, as usual, it comes down to the GM to put a stop to the arms race to begin with, either by not tolerating it in the first place (pre-game blurbs being helpful here, since players will respect those as far as I've witnessed, and it saves the GM and players time spent on the plot at hand - useful for con games); or being creative and coming up with a reason why it might not work and/or will eventually turn on the PCs if it ever does.

As a GM, if a player is too general and wants an advantage over the others (a technological advantage in the realm of Amber, on top of that) but without a precise goal in mind, it's much less likely to succeed than if it's tailored to a situation at hand.

For example:

Corwin had the motive (Eric has been Crowned, the bastard burned out my eyes, I hate him with a passion, I need to find an advantage and become the new King) and the Author/GM created the means for his revenge. Of course, the Author/GM is clever enough that he'll appeal to Corwin's better (?) judgement and use the guns of Avalon for Amber and not against it.

If Corwin-the-player had come up to the GM and said "Well, at this point I want to find out what substance can be used in Amber for a working gunpowder simply because I'd like to have the advantage over the other players..." I just don't see that being justified, much less happen.

If it fits the character (a scientific background of sorts would be a good start here) and the story, then why not allow even an H-bomb that functions in Amber? Giving power to the players is always the GM's decision, isn't it?... What player is going to be upset when you tell them "No, your trump-powered blaster does not function here in Amber..."? (disappointed, maybe... :P )

Quote from: Nihilistic MindThat's true... Unfortunately, when we want to look at canon and set up standards as such, we cannot assume that Corwin or even Merlin are outright lying or twisting the truth.

But for the purpose of an Amber game, it could transpire that Corwins memory was a bit muddled about his jewellers rouge. He might confused that story with something else, very easily indeed. It isn't that he's lying, or even twisting the truth, its just that he's rather old, rather tired, and got it wrong. I quite like that interpretation.

Quote from: Nihilistic MindUnfortunately, when we want to look at canon and set up standards as such, we cannot assume that Corwin or even Merlin are outright lying or twisting the truth.

Is this an issue in actual play?

Yes, if (as a GM) I depended upon the authority of the canon to back my choice to describe things in one way or another then I might worry about this.  But (again, as a GM) I usually just say "Wow, look!  I decided that it's this way rather than that ... and I'm the GM, so that's the way it is."

I mean ... if ever there was a game with a healthy love for the unilateral authority of the GM, it's gotta be Amber, right?  So play the game.

Quote from: TonyLBIs this an issue in actual play?

Yes, if (as a GM) I depended upon the authority of the canon to back my choice to describe things in one way or another then I might worry about this.  But (again, as a GM) I usually just say "Wow, look!  I decided that it's this way rather than that ... and I'm the GM, so that's the way it is."

I mean ... if ever there was a game with a healthy love for the unilateral authority of the GM, it's gotta be Amber, right?  So play the game.

I can't see GM authority as a problem, no. The idea behind getting closer to canon is simply to get a universal interpretation. I understand the need for variants, obviously... If Amber DRPG campaigns were based on one canonical immutable law (the way certain settings seem to ring with certain player types) things would get repetitive, and potentially boring.

I simply see that defining a canonical idea of what Zelazny tries to convey is helpful in dealing with players looking for working guns, or advanced technology, in the realm of Amber when you as a GM has decided otherwise, rather than take the whole "Corwin is lying or omitting something from his explanation..."

As a GM, when the player is being creative with problem-solving, I don't like to just say "No, it doesn't work..." Thus, as an extension of this tendency, I'm looking for something more tangible within Corwin's own explanation and perception of the events involving the guns of Avalon.

The whole "Gunpowder Arms Race" just isn't all that creative after all. Corwin did it, Luke did it... Extensions of the possibility of technology in Amber can become creative, and justifying it within Zelazny's vision becomes a bit more important (so that I can sleep at night, without having nightmares about H-bombs blowing up at the harbor), hence the importance of a more canonical interpretation based on Corwin's account (and the crazy assumption that he's actually telling the truth the whole time). The good thing (for GMs) is that Zelazny left a ton of room for answers to questions he raises in both series.

Interestingly enough, I've only known two players who have had their character actively seek gunpowder usable in Amber, and never in my campaigns, so I haven't had to deal with that whole issue personally.

Anyways...
How/Where does Luke get his gunpowder from? Is this ever explained?

Oh, and what other explanations (other than Corwin lies, or got confused) do you use when dealing with players looking to enhance Amber's technological advancement?

Did anyone use the ADRPG suggestion of: The Pattern actively modified the laws of physics to keep guns (even Corwin's secret formula) from functionning there? What would THAT explanation imply about the Pattern?

Quote from: finarvynOne way to deal with it would be the "Macgyver" solution... assume that Corwin has discovered something like a key State Secret and that that when he writes his story he's still wanting to keep things a secret. Assume that he's left something out...

Go back to "Guns of Avalon" and zero in on Corwin's little expedition with a shovel.

To my mind it always came across as an excessive effort, if all Corwin needed was cash, or diamonds. It just doesn't fit, at least to my way of thinking.

Also, to make contemporary firearms you need more than just gunpowder. You also need a primer; some chemical formulation that will work to ignite the gunpowder.

So I like to think that Corwin's little side trek, taking a shovel out into Shadow, involved picking up some essential element needed for his European arms factory's formulation of the primer in the rifle shells.

Erick

Referring to GoA, it wasn't primer that was the problem, it was cutting it down.  Now some things would be able to be used to cut the rouge with, and others would cause issues, but I agree, Corwin was leaving things out at that point. :)

It's my opinion that Amber (its a shadow after all) was designed not to allow gunpowder to work. This could be a decision made by The pattern itself (or its avatar the unicorn) Dworkin or Oberon.

I prefer the idea that Oberon in securing the kingdom manipulated shadow to stop gunpwder from working. He went through a list of stuff eliminating it, basically to make the place easier to defend from attack.

Maybe he forgot about the jeweller's rouge, maybe he deliberately affected it's properties to give Corwin his favoured candidate for the throne an edge. In either case Oberon or another top of the line Pattern guy can in all probability repeat the trick and make rouge inert again. Maybe you need the jewel of judgement maybe not who knows , but its a simple way of limiting any arms race within the bounds of the internal logic of Amber.

I think the idea that Corwin is lying throughout all 5 books can get a bit overplayed. I mean it could be that he is but then everything could be a lie and he didn't build a new pattern, fight Brand etc etc , in fact he framed Brand none of the other amberites actually exist etc etc ...

Quote from: jibbajibbaI think the idea that Corwin is lying throughout all 5 books can get a bit overplayed. I mean it could be that he is but then everything could be a lie and he didn't build a new pattern, fight Brand etc etc , in fact he framed Brand none of the other amberites actually exist etc etc ...

He's probably not lying, he's merely remembering things from his own perspective.

I've always thought of Oberon as actively managing his realm. So gunpowder doesn't work in Amber because Oberon always editited it out (IMC this is the true power of the Jewel of Judgment, you control the shadow of Amber). Oberon never struck me as the type who would want to deal with snipers in his own kingdom.

In one campainge idea i have, King Random hasn't figuered out how to fix the gunpowder problem as per the Merlin series. As a response to this problem he's created an Amber version of the ATF. Jewelers Rougue is a controlled substance and automatically considerd the property of the crown. Those in possetion of it are outlaws and are hunted down. The players are essentially agents of the crown. This was my idea for a game based on 50 point character

Quote from: CabHe's probably not lying, he's merely remembering things from his own perspective.

Not just perspective, but his narration to his son.  From the way things are written from nine princes, the whole thing is a story he is telling someone, we find out later that it's his son that he has just met.  Why would he tell everything?  We're talking about a group of people who hardly even trust themselves let alone family.  Lies no, the same game referred to throughout the books, yes...

Some of my players have started using one of my favorite phrases, "I trust him like an Amberite..."  To wit, he might have information, but what spin is on it, and why.

Yes, ofcourse there were parts in the story that Corwin lied.
RZ is too creative of a writer to not take into account Corwin's occasional omission or re-tailoring of a part of the story to suit him.

But i think in the end, he truly opened up to his son because he realized the folly of his father and his family, the vicious cycle, and what it ment to have a blood ally that you not only want to trust you, (hah), but to love you. and in the end, it payed off.

now, as for the gunpowder, so many great thoughts, but as it was said about constructs... don't you think these elders tried these ideas before.... what's to stop Lenny, son of ?, from getting that ' ubiquitous kryptonite'? The guards Benedict placed w/ his strategy/warfare which had HIM seek these things out long ago to hide, guard, destroy, whatever, whoever.... those pesky elders have already thought of your world conquering ideas youngsters, and have planned against them. Well, possibly... after all, everything is possible in Shadow.... snicker.....

But i too like seeing them try their hand at supremacy, (pc's) I mean, that is alot of the fun of the game, not just the story-line the GM creates, but the crazy goals and ideas the pc's come up w/ that a fast obliquely thinking GM has to be prepared for.

( I confess, even i have tried my hand at taking things over, but in  much subtler ways)

Guns have only ever worked on Elders due to carelessness.  Nobody knew Rinaldo was out there, and nobody could have imagined he'd find the secret to gunpowder.

Immunity to guns costs what, 12 points?  If your campaign is set after Caine was assassinated with a rifle, you can bet most of the Elders are going to take time and find some means of protecting themselves.

Finding gunpowder is basically an investment in time and points that will be rather quickly negated by royal family members.  Sure, on an army level it will still confer an advantage, but the GM can price it to be commensurate with other point costs - perhaps it's the equivalent of Deadly Damage artifacts in enough numbers for your entire army to be supplied with them.

Quote from: moritheil;306306Guns have only ever worked on Elders due to carelessness.  Nobody knew Rinaldo was out there, and nobody could have imagined he'd find the secret to gunpowder.

Immunity to guns costs what, 12 points?  If your campaign is set after Caine was assassinated with a rifle, you can bet most of the Elders are going to take time and find some means of protecting themselves.

Finding gunpowder is basically an investment in time and points that will be rather quickly negated by royal family members.  Sure, on an army level it will still confer an advantage, but the GM can price it to be commensurate with other point costs - perhaps it's the equivalent of Deadly Damage artifacts in enough numbers for your entire army to be supplied with them.

That is a bit of a meta-gamey answer. Amberites don't all walk round with in enamelled white armour or rings of missile prevention. Its just not very Amberish.  
Guns are the great leveller in warfare. if you use swords then the best warriors win and it takes years to train. A 12 year old can be trained to use an AK47 and mow down dozens of folks in a few seconds.

Quote from: jibbajibba;306540That is a bit of a meta-gamey answer. Amberites don't all walk round with in enamelled white armour or rings of missile prevention. Its just not very Amberish.  

Not as such, but as they are paranoid, they do take precautions.  

"That's a lot of supposing," says Merlin to Luke at one point when they discuss plans to attack the Keep of Four Worlds.

Luke replies, "It's what separates us from the losers."

I imagine, for instance, that in the wake of an assassination by rifle, Fiona would keep a spell prepared to ward off bullets, and might cast it before appearing at public events.  Julian does actually walk around in bulletproof armor, so his behavior would probably not change too much in that respect.  I wouldn't put it past Random to import some Kevlar vests, or the like.  They don't need to show up with the full D&D gear option, but I can't see them not taking precautions.

QuoteA 12 year old can be trained to use an AK47 and mow down dozens of folks in a few seconds.

I never questioned guns giving a bonus at a military force level; rather, I suggested that without the element of surprise, guns may not be very effective against the elders.  But if you think about it, there's no reason why Random can't order Flora to import bulletproof helmets and vests for the palace guard, or figure out some way to update their body armor to incorporate Kevlar lining.  Of course, that doesn't mean they can ignore bullets entirely, but it cuts down on the effectiveness of guns, which should reduce the bonus that they would give an invading force.  There is also the matter of training the palace guard to deal with enemies that have guns.

Quoteif you use swords then the best warriors win and it takes years to train

Incidentally, this part about obviating the need for years of training is true of the crossbow as well, which is why they had such a bad reputation in medieval Europe.  In a sense, guns are merely a further refinement of that.

I'm actually beginning to wonder if guns are bad for the game for precisely the reason you just mentioned: being a master swordsman highly ranked in Warfare does little if you're sniped from 2000 meters.  Of course, if you are aware of the possibility of doing so, then the engagement turns into a tactical matter, and Warfare plays out in things like decisions about where to seek cover.  Still, if rings of missile protection are not particularly Amberish, neither is letting the same trick that felled one elder work again on the others.

So, for reasons of game balance, flavor, and the in-character paranoia and prudence of the elders, I can't see gunpowder being allowed as an "I win" development.  Of course, if you're the GM, do what you want.

Quote from: moritheil;306582Not as such, but as they are paranoid, they do take precautions.  

"That's a lot of supposing," says Merlin to Luke at one point when they discuss plans to attack the Keep of Four Worlds.

Luke replies, "It's what separates us from the losers."

I imagine, for instance, that in the wake of an assassination by rifle, Fiona would keep a spell prepared to ward off bullets, and might cast it before appearing at public events.  Julian does actually walk around in bulletproof armor, so his behavior would probably not change too much in that respect.  I wouldn't put it past Random to import some Kevlar vests, or the like.  They don't need to show up with the full D&D gear option, but I can't see them not taking precautions.



I never questioned guns giving a bonus at a military force level; rather, I suggested that without the element of surprise, guns may not be very effective against the elders.  But if you think about it, there's no reason why Random can't order Flora to import bulletproof helmets and vests for the palace guard, or figure out some way to update their body armor to incorporate Kevlar lining.  Of course, that doesn't mean they can ignore bullets entirely, but it cuts down on the effectiveness of guns, which should reduce the bonus that they would give an invading force.  There is also the matter of training the palace guard to deal with enemies that have guns.



Incidentally, this part about obviating the need for years of training is true of the crossbow as well, which is why they had such a bad reputation in medieval Europe.  In a sense, guns are merely a further refinement of that.

I'm actually beginning to wonder if guns are bad for the game for precisely the reason you just mentioned: being a master swordsman highly ranked in Warfare does little if you're sniped from 2000 meters.  Of course, if you are aware of the possibility of doing so, then the engagement turns into a tactical matter, and Warfare plays out in things like decisions about where to seek cover.  Still, if rings of missile protection are not particularly Amberish, neither is letting the same trick that felled one elder work again on the others.

So, for reasons of game balance, flavor, and the in-character paranoia and prudence of the elders, I can't see gunpowder being allowed as an "I win" development.  Of course, if you're the GM, do what you want.

Agree on crossbows but they are a wee bit slower than 400 rounds per minute :-)

I was bieng a bit antagonistic , apologies. My point was that if I were an Amberite who had trained as a great warrior for hundreds of years I would remove the
possibility of getting blown up by a grenade or shot by a sniper if at all possible.  The most Amberish way i can see to do this is to edit the pattern I am in to not allow firearms (but I did like the idea that Random would wear a bulletproof vest on public appearances).

Quote from: jibbajibba;306592Agree on crossbows but they are a wee bit slower than 400 rounds per minute :-)
  The most Amberish way i can see to do this is to edit the pattern I am in to not allow firearms (but I did like the idea that Random would wear a bulletproof vest on public appearances).

That's what was done IMC... It is the easiest way to assure a wild-west free Amber. Ofcourse, the king can always edit it back with the jewel, if it is in his possession. (IMC)

(BTW, ya ever see the anime "Beserk"? He could get off that many bolts quickly... LOL)