The Amber-Gunpowder Arms Race

[Cab]

There's also plenty of justification if one wants to argue that Corwin was lying through his teeth ... after all, he was talking to his son, and probably wanted to put the nicest possible spin on events.  "Oh ... how'd I take over Amber?

He's also slightly unhinged when he's telling his tale. He has just raced from one extreme of reality to the other, pausing only briefly to rewrite a new version of the universe en route, battling with evil siblings and losing the one sister he really cares about... Who knows how much of that stuff is merely a figment of his (legendary) imagination?

[Nihilistic Mind]

He's also slightly unhinged when he's telling his tale. He has just raced from one extreme of reality to the other, pausing only briefly to rewrite a new version of the universe en route, battling with evil siblings and losing the one sister he really cares about... Who knows how much of that stuff is merely a figment of his (legendary) imagination?

That's true... Unfortunately, when we want to look at canon and set up standards as such, we cannot assume that Corwin or even Merlin are outright lying or twisting the truth. Sure we can certainly interpret that it is THEIR perception, but Corwin's weapons are his, yet in Merlin's series, Rinaldo makes use of them to assassinate Caine (whether you assume Caine to be dead is another story covered somewhere else...)

Rinaldo, clearly not as ancient as Benedict has made use of Corwin's formula, or one of his own (does he ever reveal that? I can't recall specifically). Perhaps Benedict already has tried and succeeded, then realized something Corwin hasn't.

An easy way to by-pass the gunpowder in Amber issue: having steam-powered machines and steam-driven projectiles, etc.
"What? What do you mean water in Amber doesn't boil at 100 degrees celsius?"

[Otha]

Anyone who starts getting into issues of science with regard to Amber is going to have problems with me as a GM, unless their character has a scientific background and starts doing the research from first principles.  Basing assumptions on Earth science is a mistake.

[Nihilistic Mind]

Exactly, in which case, as usual, it comes down to the GM to put a stop to the arms race to begin with, either by not tolerating it in the first place (pre-game blurbs being helpful here, since players will respect those as far as I've witnessed, and it saves the GM and players time spent on the plot at hand - useful for con games); or being creative and coming up with a reason why it might not work and/or will eventually turn on the PCs if it ever does.

As a GM, if a player is too general and wants an advantage over the others (a technological advantage in the realm of Amber, on top of that) but without a precise goal in mind, it's much less likely to succeed than if it's tailored to a situation at hand.

For example:

Corwin had the motive (Eric has been Crowned, the bastard burned out my eyes, I hate him with a passion, I need to find an advantage and become the new King) and the Author/GM created the means for his revenge. Of course, the Author/GM is clever enough that he'll appeal to Corwin's better (?) judgement and use the guns of Avalon for Amber and not against it.

If Corwin-the-player had come up to the GM and said "Well, at this point I want to find out what substance can be used in Amber for a working gunpowder simply because I'd like to have the advantage over the other players..." I just don't see that being justified, much less happen.

If it fits the character (a scientific background of sorts would be a good start here) and the story, then why not allow even an H-bomb that functions in Amber? Giving power to the players is always the GM's decision, isn't it?... What player is going to be upset when you tell them "No, your trump-powered blaster does not function here in Amber..."? (disappointed, maybe... )

[Cab]

That's true... Unfortunately, when we want to look at canon and set up standards as such, we cannot assume that Corwin or even Merlin are outright lying or twisting the truth.

But for the purpose of an Amber game, it could transpire that Corwins memory was a bit muddled about his jewellers rouge. He might confused that story with something else, very easily indeed. It isn't that he's lying, or even twisting the truth, its just that he's rather old, rather tired, and got it wrong. I quite like that interpretation.

[TonyLB]

Unfortunately, when we want to look at canon and set up standards as such, we cannot assume that Corwin or even Merlin are outright lying or twisting the truth.

Is this an issue in actual play?

Yes, if (as a GM) I depended upon the authority of the canon to back my choice to describe things in one way or another then I might worry about this.  But (again, as a GM) I usually just say "Wow, look!  I decided that it's this way rather than that ... and I'm the GM, so that's the way it is."

I mean ... if ever there was a game with a healthy love for the unilateral authority of the GM, it's gotta be Amber, right?  So play the game.

[Nihilistic Mind]

Is this an issue in actual play?

Yes, if (as a GM) I depended upon the authority of the canon to back my choice to describe things in one way or another then I might worry about this.  But (again, as a GM) I usually just say "Wow, look!  I decided that it's this way rather than that ... and I'm the GM, so that's the way it is."

I mean ... if ever there was a game with a healthy love for the unilateral authority of the GM, it's gotta be Amber, right?  So play the game.

I can't see GM authority as a problem, no. The idea behind getting closer to canon is simply to get a universal interpretation. I understand the need for variants, obviously... If Amber DRPG campaigns were based on one canonical immutable law (the way certain settings seem to ring with certain player types) things would get repetitive, and potentially boring.

I simply see that defining a canonical idea of what Zelazny tries to convey is helpful in dealing with players looking for working guns, or advanced technology, in the realm of Amber when you as a GM has decided otherwise, rather than take the whole "Corwin is lying or omitting something from his explanation..."

As a GM, when the player is being creative with problem-solving, I don't like to just say "No, it doesn't work..." Thus, as an extension of this tendency, I'm looking for something more tangible within Corwin's own explanation and perception of the events involving the guns of Avalon.

The whole "Gunpowder Arms Race" just isn't all that creative after all. Corwin did it, Luke did it... Extensions of the possibility of technology in Amber can become creative, and justifying it within Zelazny's vision becomes a bit more important (so that I can sleep at night, without having nightmares about H-bombs blowing up at the harbor), hence the importance of a more canonical interpretation based on Corwin's account (and the crazy assumption that he's actually telling the truth the whole time). The good thing (for GMs) is that Zelazny left a ton of room for answers to questions he raises in both series.

Interestingly enough, I've only known two players who have had their character actively seek gunpowder usable in Amber, and never in my campaigns, so I haven't had to deal with that whole issue personally.

Anyways...
How/Where does Luke get his gunpowder from? Is this ever explained?

Oh, and what other explanations (other than Corwin lies, or got confused) do you use when dealing with players looking to enhance Amber's technological advancement?

Did anyone use the ADRPG suggestion of: The Pattern actively modified the laws of physics to keep guns (even Corwin's secret formula) from functionning there? What would THAT explanation imply about the Pattern?

[Erick Wujcik]

One way to deal with it would be the "Macgyver" solution... assume that Corwin has discovered something like a key State Secret and that that when he writes his story he's still wanting to keep things a secret. Assume that he's left something out...

Go back to "Guns of Avalon" and zero in on Corwin's little expedition with a shovel.

To my mind it always came across as an excessive effort, if all Corwin needed was cash, or diamonds. It just doesn't fit, at least to my way of thinking.

Also, to make contemporary firearms you need more than just gunpowder. You also need a primer; some chemical formulation that will work to ignite the gunpowder.

So I like to think that Corwin's little side trek, taking a shovel out into Shadow, involved picking up some essential element needed for his European arms factory's formulation of the primer in the rifle shells.

Erick

[crafty]

Referring to GoA, it wasn't primer that was the problem, it was cutting it down.  Now some things would be able to be used to cut the rouge with, and others would cause issues, but I agree, Corwin was leaving things out at that point.

[jibbajibba]

It's my opinion that Amber (its a shadow after all) was designed not to allow gunpowder to work. This could be a decision made by The pattern itself (or its avatar the unicorn) Dworkin or Oberon.

I prefer the idea that Oberon in securing the kingdom manipulated shadow to stop gunpwder from working. He went through a list of stuff eliminating it, basically to make the place easier to defend from attack.

Maybe he forgot about the jeweller's rouge, maybe he deliberately affected it's properties to give Corwin his favoured candidate for the throne an edge. In either case Oberon or another top of the line Pattern guy can in all probability repeat the trick and make rouge inert again. Maybe you need the jewel of judgement maybe not who knows , but its a simple way of limiting any arms race within the bounds of the internal logic of Amber.

I think the idea that Corwin is lying throughout all 5 books can get a bit overplayed. I mean it could be that he is but then everything could be a lie and he didn't build a new pattern, fight Brand etc etc , in fact he framed Brand none of the other amberites actually exist etc etc ...

[Cab]

I think the idea that Corwin is lying throughout all 5 books can get a bit overplayed. I mean it could be that he is but then everything could be a lie and he didn't build a new pattern, fight Brand etc etc , in fact he framed Brand none of the other amberites actually exist etc etc ...

He's probably not lying, he's merely remembering things from his own perspective.

[CoffeeNPizza]

I've always thought of Oberon as actively managing his realm. So gunpowder doesn't work in Amber because Oberon always editited it out (IMC this is the true power of the Jewel of Judgment, you control the shadow of Amber). Oberon never struck me as the type who would want to deal with snipers in his own kingdom.

In one campainge idea i have, King Random hasn't figuered out how to fix the gunpowder problem as per the Merlin series. As a response to this problem he's created an Amber version of the ATF. Jewelers Rougue is a controlled substance and automatically considerd the property of the crown. Those in possetion of it are outlaws and are hunted down. The players are essentially agents of the crown. This was my idea for a game based on 50 point character

[crafty]

He's probably not lying, he's merely remembering things from his own perspective.

Not just perspective, but his narration to his son.  From the way things are written from nine princes, the whole thing is a story he is telling someone, we find out later that it's his son that he has just met.  Why would he tell everything?  We're talking about a group of people who hardly even trust themselves let alone family.  Lies no, the same game referred to throughout the books, yes...

Some of my players have started using one of my favorite phrases, "I trust him like an Amberite..."  To wit, he might have information, but what spin is on it, and why.

[gabriel_ss4u]

Yes, ofcourse there were parts in the story that Corwin lied.
RZ is too creative of a writer to not take into account Corwin's occasional omission or re-tailoring of a part of the story to suit him.

But i think in the end, he truly opened up to his son because he realized the folly of his father and his family, the vicious cycle, and what it ment to have a blood ally that you not only want to trust you, (hah), but to love you. and in the end, it payed off.

now, as for the gunpowder, so many great thoughts, but as it was said about constructs... don't you think these elders tried these ideas before.... what's to stop Lenny, son of ?, from getting that ' ubiquitous kryptonite'? The guards Benedict placed w/ his strategy/warfare which had HIM seek these things out long ago to hide, guard, destroy, whatever, whoever.... those pesky elders have already thought of your world conquering ideas youngsters, and have planned against them. Well, possibly... after all, everything is possible in Shadow.... snicker.....

But i too like seeing them try their hand at supremacy, (pc's) I mean, that is alot of the fun of the game, not just the story-line the GM creates, but the crazy goals and ideas the pc's come up w/ that a fast obliquely thinking GM has to be prepared for.

( I confess, even i have tried my hand at taking things over, but in  much subtler ways)

[moritheil]

Guns have only ever worked on Elders due to carelessness.  Nobody knew Rinaldo was out there, and nobody could have imagined he'd find the secret to gunpowder.

Immunity to guns costs what, 12 points?  If your campaign is set after Caine was assassinated with a rifle, you can bet most of the Elders are going to take time and find some means of protecting themselves.

Finding gunpowder is basically an investment in time and points that will be rather quickly negated by royal family members.  Sure, on an army level it will still confer an advantage, but the GM can price it to be commensurate with other point costs - perhaps it's the equivalent of Deadly Damage artifacts in enough numbers for your entire army to be supplied with them.