Hey. I was thinking about how many GMs end up incorporating things like "multiple universes" into their Amber campaign, the Abyss as its own universe or a gateway to others, etc.
I know I've done this myself more than once in my many campaigns.
However, the more I think about it the more it smacks me of a somewhat lazy attitude on the part of a GM. I mean, think about it: you already have an entire MULTIVERSE to work with. I just find it odd that so many campaigns feel that this is somehow too small, and end up having to show other "ambers" or "chaoses" or "courts" of other kinds, instead of the incredible huge wealth of shit that could possibly exist out there in shadow.
In any case, it seems to me that its WAY more common for an Amber campaign to be about Multiverse-hopping than it is to have a campaign that focuses in depth on an area of Shadow, wherein you could potentially find almost ANYTHING. That's pretty odd, but I chalk it up to the fact that "multiple universes" or cheap copies of the courts or of Amber providing the plotline takes much less creativity than creating something really original inside of Shadow itself.
RPGPundit
I'm always sort of stunned that people have so little interest in Arden ... which is, by all accounts, pretty big on its own (certainly bigger than any forest ever recorded on Earth) and damn near fixed/real.
Even shadow seems a bit of a cop-out ... have you explored Arden? For that matter, have you explored the city of Amber? Or even the Castle?
Planets are huge yet in Star Wars they are reduced to sterotypical places and no one really seems to mind. "Obi-Wan is on Tatooine, oh, well that's right over there and ... there he is!"
In the same way, the Amber universe is gigantic but we focus on the special places rather than the random stuff in between becasue Amber is all about the big-picture storyline and not randomly searching a map hex-by-hex.
Quote from: TonyLBI'm always sort of stunned that people have so little interest in Arden ... which is, by all accounts, pretty big on its own (certainly bigger than any forest ever recorded on Earth) and damn near fixed/real.
Even shadow seems a bit of a cop-out ... have you explored Arden? For that matter, have you explored the city of Amber? Or even the Castle?
I've always imagined that Arden was a forest so big it covered multiple shadows, stretched out and bordered a number of the golden circle realms.
I mean shit, these new guys could easily write a 200 page sourcebook on Arden, another on Amber City, another on the Golden Circle, and not to mention Castle Amber and Rebma.
And yes, in most campaigns I've seen this remarkably underused.
RPGPundit
Quote from: finarvynPlanets are huge yet in Star Wars they are reduced to sterotypical places and no one really seems to mind. "Obi-Wan is on Tatooine, oh, well that's right over there and ... there he is!"
In the same way, the Amber universe is gigantic but we focus on the special places rather than the random stuff in between becasue Amber is all about the big-picture storyline and not randomly searching a map hex-by-hex.
Well, I don't think we should do hex-by-hex, but I do think that some of the best Amber campaigns I've ran were ones where I had written a TON of material on the Golden Circle, or other specific Shadows out there where a lot of the action took place; or where my players developed a LOT of detail about their personal shadows, making them in that way into places where a lot of the action was.
RPGPundit
One way I've done it where this type of important geography can work is to make the geography important because of its emotional import to some NPC.
Now Amber and Arden get this by default. If you're playing around in Arden it's because you have some relationship or other to Julian ... otherwise why the hell would you even be there?
But you can do the same thing with just about any place. I suggested to one guy playing the estranged teen son of King Random that his character should be a student at his father's old alma mater ... and the school itself became fascinating because of the bond that shared history created (for good and for ill).
When people put creative investment in a place, it's only fair to steer play in that direction.
When play finds itself steered towards a particular place, people naturallys tart to put creative investment in it.
It's a self-feeding cycle.
Quote from: RPGPunditI mean shit, these new guys could easily write a 200 page sourcebook on Arden, another on Amber City, another on the Golden Circle, and not to mention Castle Amber and Rebma.
Gaaah! I hope not!
I mean, I really want some
Amber Diceless products so I can spend my paycheck on them, but I don't want somebody going so far from the canon as to make up 200 pages on anything. I think that the end result of such a product would be some generic D&D-like world where a lot of the spark of Amber would be extinguished by pages of narrative.
To me, Amber should be somewhat on-the-fly and vague so that the GM can fill in details as appropriate. I'd like to see some "official" maps, but I really don't want every place explained and explored already. I'm pretty sure that would kill Amber for me, and I'd hate that. :(
What I'd like to see each of those "sourcebooks" be is a bunch of possibilities, just like what is done for the NPCs in the main books, do the same for the places: "what if Forest Arden was x?"; "or what if it was y?", "how about if it had z?". Stuff like that.
RPGPundit
Nah... I'm with Fin here... If you'd got a canonic plane of Castle Amber, then you couldn't make the hole in the wall end in the room you want it too... And Arden? Come on, It's just a BIG place with loads of trees and monsters and Julian and Julian's pets and Julian's Rangers and more Julian... what else do you need to know? You can even take out Julian. Same with Rebma. Mirrored Amber, underwater and full of fish-boys and fish-girls. The thing I like best about Amber is exactly that you haven't got any restriction, not only in the Shadows but in Amber itself. I mean, boy, some of the funniest scenes in my campaign were about one of the players wandering around the Castle alongside Martin, looking for wine in the kitchens, getting pissed and wandering some more. Or some players looking for another one in the gardens and running into her pet tiger.
Nope, I prefer it when it's all in my head. Helps keeping the mistery and wonderment, allows me to do whatever I want to, and, frankly, I really don't care for being forced to constantly look at a map. Who cares if Fiona's room was in the left hallway before?
I perfectly understand the no-map point of view, but I like pundit's idea. Having multiple suggestions about a place won't mean you'll be forced to use one, just as no GM is constrained to use a published version of an amberite, but, if well done, it could give one a lot of cool ideas.
And who says Arden is just a forest? I read this essay once about Arden being the representation of the Chinese Wood element in Amber, just like some people assume there's a representation of the classical 4 elements trhough amber, rebma, tir and a lost 5th pattern. This would make arden much more important, and give it a lot of associated meanings as well.
Anyway, do not rule out Arden because it's "just a forest" or rebma because it's "just a city". Both can be much more in the hands of a good GM.
I think you miss the point. When I say "It's just a forest", I'm saying that that's the only thing I like to be fixed about it. The big, green, and potentially dangerous Amber's only entrance by land (at least before Corwin's shadow-walk in Kolvir itself). Same thing with Rebma. That's exactly why I don't want them too defined. Because both can be much more in the hands of a good GM.
The chinese elements thingie's nice, but would you like it to be the "Official" Arden? There is a saying in Spanish that goes "de costumbres se hacen leyes", which means something like "from habits you get laws". I don't want that happening to Amber. I can see how vague suggestion could be nice, but let's keep it at that.
There would no more be an official arden than there's an official Oberon, Corwin or Dara, just possibilities, ideas and suggestions.
In a way, this is already done in the corebook whan erik talks about various places. Although an entire book on, say, arden, would be probably too much, a book with various ideas, versions and suggestions about different versions of Amber, Arden, Tir, Rebma, the Golden Circle... could be a great source of inspiration IMO, just as the various versions of the elders.
I don't even like the "versions" of the Elders. They say too much; instead, summaries that list the things that the GM needs to consider if he wants his elders to be accurate to Canon should be enough.
I was discussing this same issue with the pundit last night, and he's right in one point though: I was totally forgetting the commercial aspect. For the game we love to stay in the market, as massive as possible, then something should be released. Commercially, I don't think a game could hope to survive with only one corebook and one sourcebook, so I think that what Fishy over there says is probably the better option.
And, Otha, I see what you mean, but I actually found the "versions" very entertaining at least. If memory doesn't fail, my Corwin resembled quite closely one of them, whereas my Bleys included elements from all three (there where three, right? I don't have the book at hand). And I say "resemble". I didn't actually based them on the handbook's versions, but they (book's) were so well done they actually resembled my own :) .
Edit to add: Whoo-hoo!! 200 posts. I'm an arsehole, I know.
Quote from: SunBoyAnd, Otha, I see what you mean, but I actually found the "versions" very entertaining at least. If memory doesn't fail, my Corwin resembled quite closely one of them, whereas my Bleys included elements from all three (there where three, right? I don't have the book at hand). And I say "resemble". I didn't actually based them on the handbook's versions, but they (book's) were so well done they actually resembled my own :) .
Exactly, and a GOOD writer could do something similar with Arden, Rebma, the Golden Circle, or Amber City & Castle. Create something that gives you ideas and helps you along, rather than limiting you and tying you down. That's what Erick did with the Elders.
It makes no sense to be fucking scared of either descriptions or stats; just of the people writing them. If we can trust them, their work will be good. And Erick assures me that we can trust these new guys.
RPGPundit
I don't know about that, Pundit. Erick's 300/400/500-point Elders did a lot to support the idea that the Elders must be massively more powerful than the PC's, enough so that doing anything else is noteworthy.
It's not really the content that I dislike (please don't use the word 'scared' that's a straw man argument and you know it) it's the metacontent.
Well, you can still give more points to your PCs, and/or a fast advancement rate. I gave a base 120 points, and, 5 years later, had godlike 400-points PCs.
I did a similar thing in my various Throne Wars, with a range going from 150 to 300 points.
=> What you say is only partly true: The corebook surely enforces the idea that Elders are powerfull (shouldn't they be?), but you can easily make the PCs as powerfull as you want them to be.
(Sorry, I'm not really sure about my english there)
Quote from: OthaI don't know about that, Pundit. Erick's 300/400/500-point Elders did a lot to support the idea that the Elders must be massively more powerful than the PC's, enough so that doing anything else is noteworthy.
Uhm.. yeah. And the current material on Arden indicates that it has a lot of trees. So what?
RPGPundit
My point is that the Elders don't HAVE to be massively more powerful than the PC's, but many GM's don't realize this because Erick makes out like it's a matter of canon, but it isn't, really.
If Merlin, Martin, and Dara (the archetypal Youngers from the first series) had had their stories told on the same epic scale that Corwin's had been, I think that impression would turn out to be flawed.
If you go into second-series, Rinaldo was able to kill Caine. We don't know how difficult it was, but the fact that it happened should show that if you just look at the books (and not Erick's interpretation of them via his powerful writeups) the Elders don't have to be so unapproachable.
Quote from: CroakerWell, you can still give more points to your PCs...
Yes, and you can give fewer to the Elders.
What I'm saying is that even though giving 100 points to starting PC's is just a suggestion, even though giving them few points for advancement is just a suggestion, even though using the Elders out of the book is a suggestion, it's a strong suggestion and it has a powerful impact on the way Amber is expected to be run.
To get back on topic...
Putting detailed amplifications of Arden/Golden Circle/whathaveyou into print will also have a powerful impact on the way Amber is run. People will be less surprised by an element that comes out of The Book than one that comes out of the GM's mishmash of an imagination.
Far better, I think, to have something like a concordance, where the book collects all the canon references to a person, place, or thing, so that the GM knows where he's starting from when he makes his own version of that person, place, or thing.
I think the GM's imagination ought to be given a freer range than this kind of content would do.
Quote from: OthaIt's not really the content that I dislike (please don't use the word 'scared' that's a straw man argument and you know it) it's the metacontent.
Do you care to elaborate? What metacontent?
The fact that Elders are tough isn't metaanything, it's quite plain. And I don't think they're "unaproachable". Or even REALLY hard to kill... or at least disable for a while.
What I mean by metacontent:
When you present three options, all of which have some quality in common between the two, it had damn well better be something canon.
Benedict has high warfare skill in every version? No problem.
Corwin has Greyswandir in every version? No problem.
Caine has a way to eavesdrop on trumps in every version? No problem.
Flora has enough swordsmanship ability to beat a middle-ranked Younger? Er, no. Just like Fiona, at least some versions of her should have Amber rank warfare.
Llewella is as strong as a middle-ranked Younger? No. Same problem.
That's what I mean by meta-content.
I think the 'three examples' model is a bit too constraining.
Now for unknowns like Osric and Finndo, this works just fine. They're excellent examples of how to build an NPC, if a bit overpowered for my tastes.
Here's a question...
In all of Corwin's Chronicles, did he ever go up against an enemy that had three to five times the resources he had?
Did he ever have an ally that had three to five times the resources he had?
No.
His enemies and allies were his peers.
I find peers to be far more interesting characters for the PC's to interact with than the Elders as presented in the book.
Maybe it's because I'm forty-two years old now, and I've grown out of seeing my mother or anyone of her generation as being, by simple virtue of their generation, just plain better than me.
Oh. THAT metacontent.
I could point out that neither you or your mummy (as far as I know), belong to a royal house of godlike beings with nearly infinite power capable of shaping universes at their whim... but I will not.
Instead of that, I will say that in the novels the Elders ARE undoubtely showed as more powerful than the younglings, just look at lil'Random (during his attempt to rescue Brand) pulverising two dozen of those clawed thingies that chase him and Corwin in the first book, when Merlin can barely survive three hired killers in Amber City. Or look at Coral, little more than a Shadow lass (pardon the pun) after first walking the Pattern... Random is often described as the weaker of the Elders, and yet I really get the distinct impression, throughout the second pentalogy, that he could overpower Merlin in almost any sense. The blood of Dworkin is like a good wine, it improves with time. Or so it seems. Corwin definitely gets better at swordplay during the first series, just as Merlin's control over the Logrus during his.
To put it plainly, the Elders having a few centuries worth of XPs doesn't sound wrong to me.
Oh, and if memory serves, Dara wasn't exactly a youngster to begin with.
And I do not enjoy the implication that either I or anyone else here worships his or her mother, specially coming from someone who is, such as yourself, so prone to call people out on "strawman arguments", flawed reasoning or silly name-calling.
You know, mate, I often enjoy reading your arguments and theories, some of them are quite interesting, but you DO get a wee bit agressive some times.
Quote from: OthaIn all of Corwin's Chronicles, did he ever go up against an enemy that had three to five times the resources he had?
Did he ever have an ally that had three to five times the resources he had?
No.
His enemies and allies were his peers.
Except...
Clearly Dworkin scared him, to the point where he ran like a bunny.
Likewise, Oberon, when all the pretense was dropped, revealed that he had pushed Corwin around like a rag doll (remember, for example, that Oberon beat the snot out of Gerard?).
Yes, his siblings, and those of his generation were definitely his peers.
However, his father, of the next generation, was something else altogether.
And his grandfather, Dworkin, turned out to be the creator of his entire universe... and a bit more than a 'peer.'
You want to run a campaign where the parents of the player characters are peers? Certainly there's no one stopping you.
However, I find that the Elder Amberites are far too interesting for them to be merely the peers of the player characters. If for no other reason than they've been around for hundreds of years, building up some very interesting seasoning.
If you want peers for your PCs there's a simple solution. Just create additional siblings, cousins and others of their generation (arguably, that's what Zelazny did in the Merlin series, with Jurt and the like).
Canon, to me, means doing things the way we see things done in Zelazny's Amber works. So it makes sense that the Elder Amberites would be as superior to the player characters, as the Elder Amberites were inferior to Oberon and Dworkin in the Chronicles.
Erick
Preface: Please read this entire post before replying. My point is at the bottom of the post.
Dworkin is neither enemy nor ally to Corwin. Oberon, too, is neither enemy nor ally to Corwin. They are forces of nature, elements that RZ uses to set the stage for Corwin's story.
The Elders, as they are portrayed in ADRP, are intended as enemies and allies for the PC's... but the points that they get make them forces of nature.
Instead of living in a universe where there are two forces of nature pushing them around, the PC's live in a universe with a dozen or more. Is it any wonder that one of the first things that some Amber GM's do is kill off, incapacitate, or otherwise remove from play a significant number of the Elders? There's just too much.
Now let me get back to my original point again, since this seems to be a side track that I keep finding us going down, and it's secondary to my point.
I'm not saying that the Elders should have the same number of points as the Youngers. I'm not even saying that the Elders can't have vastly more points than the Youngers. What I am saying is that when the rulebook presents the GM with three options, those being 300, 400, and 500, it's going to take a significant leap of faith and intuition (not impossible, just not easy) to realize that it could be 200, or 150, or 100.
That point is secondary, and an example. The fact that people argue that it's right and proper that the Elders have far more points than the PC's illustrates my point! That's a bias that's based on an interpretation of the books that's valid but not the only valid interpretation.
Now on the topic of Arden, Rebma, the Golden Circle, etc., the "Three options" model is, in my opinion, no better than it is for the Elders. Instead, I'd rather see a concordance of facts that we know from the canon about these places, followed by (perhaps) a long list of questions a GM might consider for what the place is like.
So in the end, it's about preference; a matter of taste. I don't like the "three options" Elders and I wouldn't like "three options" for Arden or the Golden Circle or anything else. They're too constraining. No, they're not actually locked-in constraints, but even as suggestions they go too far. If someone wants to read what others have done with such places, there are plenty of sources on the 'net.
In summary: I don't like powerful Elders. Yes, I recognize there are good arguments for why they should be, but I don't find them compellling compared to th arguments for why they should not. For this reason, I'm wary of the meta-content that would inevitably show up in a "three options" version of, for example, Arden.
That's my opinion. As such, I'm not sure how much discussion it bears.
No, the Elders are not the enemys and allies of the PCs in the game book, not as I've read it. They are the parents, patrons, and obstacles.
The enemys and allies of the PCs are the other PCs.
Its just like Erick said; the elders are like forces of nature, at least at first. There comes a point in every good Amber campaign (if it runs long enough) when the PCs come to realize that they are actually able to deal with these forces; this is the "growing up" moment, not unlike what happens to Merlin in the second series.
RPGPundit
I'm in two minds on the whole intergenerational issue.
On the one hand, Oberon lays out Gerard with a single punch and Dworkin clearly scares the wooblies out of Corwin, but which mystically inclined character didn't?
On the other hand, while Dalt was defeated by Benadict and Eric, neither victory is as complete as the ADRPG godlike rankings of those elders suggest they should be, and Dalt clearly thought he stood a fighting chance, else why would he risk the fight in the first place? Even after loosing to Benedict and knowing how tough the older generation could be he didn't see Eric as being unbeatable.
Merlin, while cautious, is far less frightened of Dworkin's power than Corwin, perhaps because as a sorcerer himself he understands it better.
Personally, it seems reasonable to suggest that those elders who have lived an active life are likely to have the advantage over their kids - if benedict has spent millenia studing military atctics then a relative newcomer shouldn't really expect to compete. But where we are looking at base potential or a more casual level of training then the younger generation should be on a par, or even better if they have begun to specialise. Unless Fiona has hidden skills with a sword then most of the ounger generation, including Merlin (who has some training), Rinaldo and especially Dalt should find her no threat.
This is really no different from any other parent and child relationship where the parents remain at the peak of their performance. A strongman father who is still in training has an advantage over his son who needs to catch up, but that son should easily be able to pick up his seamstress mother and throw her around.
With this in mind, the problems in ADRPG as written stem from two points:
1) the assumption that the elders have a different attribute ranking list than the younger generation, and even the best of the "kids" can't beat the worst of the parents at the start. I seem to recall that this is stated, or at least strongly implied, but it may just be a common misconception that I have encountered.
2) the strange insistence that even those elders with no evident powers should have some hidden reserve of points to draw upon in an emergency wghich would allow them to defeat a starting PC. Flora springs to mind here.
Well stated.
Continuing with the "Meta-Content of Powerfully Superior Elders (even Flora)" idea, here's what I'd like to point out and contribute.
I like the idea of PCs being able to surpass and beat the First-Gen Elders (not often, but still).
I also like when players are surprised when they DO beat NPCs, whose stats, according to the different versions, clearly are superior.
This is done simply with creating new stats for NPCs, which is not uncommon when a GM needs to surprise his/her players (I like 1st gen to be about 150 to 250, perhaps 300 if there's a need for it).
The nice thing is that with the multiple versions of the elders (often ranging from 250 to 400) the PCs are afraid of them; due to the fact that the players get access to the ADRPG books and are aware of the superiority of their powers/stats/artifacts combinations.
Simply because Corwin doesn't understand how Oberon does a trick doesn't mean he can't attune to the Jewel of Judgment and pull a trick on Oberon or Dworkin that they wouldn't have thought of or knew of its possibility.
I don't often use Elders as antagonists, but I want PCs to be able to give them trouble from time to time. As long as the player is being creative (very creative, I suppose ;), I don't see why he couldn't get away with killing an elder amberite.
In your campaign, have any (lower generation) PCs killed Elder Amberites who should have bested them?
Killed, not, but beaten, yes. It required a lot of planning and roleplay, but it was done.
Moreso, in the end, my PCs were at about 400 points themselves, on a par with most elders.
So to further twist this thread a little...
Why do PC's advance, but Elders don't?
Elders can advance.
In my own game, some of the elders (usually the younger ones) will advance, either as I see fit or from one of the lower-point versions of themselves to a higher-point version of themselves.
RPGPundit
Quote from: OthaSo to further twist this thread a little...
Why do PC's advance, but Elders don't?
Well, they do in fact, but differently.
What I did was use my version of the elders, but, if I really wanted one to do something special, or have a construct or whatever, I'd give it to him, and file it under "Elder Advancement". I never did any regular progression for them, like the PCs have had.
Note also that there's the fact that, while the early stages of a skill are usually easy to pick (say, learn all the basic pattern tricks), increased knowledge (Advanced, and especially exalted pattern) sometimes comes much more difficultly (does this word exists???). So, in the time your PC learns a lot of basics and builds up to his potential (i.e. going from 100 to 400 points), your average elder will have learned very little (going from 400 to 450), just because he already knows so much there's really little he can learn.
IMO, there are, throughout the series, a few thingies that make an Amberite or Chaosite chap "advance". Gaining knowledge about the Primal Pattern, understand that this is not the only possibility (IE, Corwin's pattern), a Chaosite understanding something about Pattern, an Amberite learning something about the Courts. I think that's the real advancement NPCs have got, wisening up to particular facts. It is easier, as you don't have got to keep track of a whole load of numbers and shit, and it is harder, because you've got to remember who know what and make them act accordingly.
Plainly put, in Amber, more than in any other game (even bloody Cthulu), knowledge is power. And while it may be tempting to assume that all Elders've got the whole knowledge base from the beggining, it is much more interesting to develop it through the game, thus making them, in a way, advance.
Quick example: PC One, Charlie the Amberite, is running away from (or chasing) Florimel around Mt. Kolvir. Now, Charlie knows he can actually Shadowwalk there, but Flora's got yet to find out. So he starts subtly shifting things around them, gaining therefore a huge advantage over her in a matter of minutes.
So if the Elders DO advance, do you wind up in a Zeno's paradox where the PC's can never fully 'catch up'?
Quote from: OthaSo if the Elders DO advance, do you wind up in a Zeno's paradox where the PC's can never fully 'catch up'?
Wow you sure are stretching to try to claim that the system is broken, aren't you?
Obviously, PCs would advance much faster than highly-powered NPCs. So the PCs would have the chance to catch up to some of the Elders, and theoretically (but unlikely) to any of the elders.
RPGPundit
Quote from: OthaSo if the Elders DO advance, do you wind up in a Zeno's paradox where the PC's can never fully 'catch up'?
IMO, not nescessarily.
Progression is a matter of conflict, learning and experience. If you stay cozy at home, you won't learn anything, so even a 1000 points NPCs would be, given enough time, left behind the PCs,
IF these PCs keep advancing themselves.
OTOH, it also makes a sense that the elders would always keep a little lead
if they continue their efforts to progress, just because they had a lead.
Say, if you're 20 and your parent is 520, he sure knows a lot more things than you, and is entitled to treat you as the brat you are. When you're 500 and he's 1000, he still is more experienced, but you're no longer such a kid. And when you're 10 000 and he's 10 500, the difference may still be there, but it'll be negligible.
Moreso, there's also the question of what they try to get into. Say that benedict completely drop warfare to concentrate on Pattern. Given enough milleniums, he may still know more things than you and become an impressive exalted pattern master, but you may have become his equal or better at warfare. So, on the one hand, you've catched up, and on the other, he's still your better
Quote from: RPGPunditWow you sure are stretching to try to claim that the system is broken, aren't you?
Obviously, PCs would advance much faster than highly-powered NPCs.
RPGPundit
Why is that obvious?
Quote from: OthaSo to further twist this thread a little...
Why do PC's advance, but Elders don't?
I advance them both, but on a scale not seen in the rules.
First I advance them by information = 'the Family Game'
Second I advance youngers by victories over threats to things they care about. You can't just go spend time in shadow and become much more experienced.
Third, I advance elders by defeats over things they care about. They already have been through enough victories that they only learn more now when they are unexpectedly knocked over by information or threats they haven't seen.
This is why Benedict (in the canon) searches constantly for battles and often takes the "losing side".
Yup, good reasonning, I cannot help but agree.
In fact, I followed the exact same reasonning in a game I've created with some friends: defeats costs you, but you also learns more.
One issue I kind of (but not really) have with the points for the elders is comparing it to the books and Wujick's rules for xp. The whole Corwin books & Black Rod war must have been the most important thing to happen to Amber since the founding. Nothing else is remembered or referred to that seems to be in any way more significant. Yet the rules say that whole conflict was worth about '25-75xp call it 50xp' per character. So how did the elders, if they were created at 100 points to start like the PCs, rise to the 300+ point versions?
Even if they got one XP per year, most of them would have hundreds stocked up or invested. The Black Road was just a big jump for them.
But how would they get 1 per year? From competing with each other? If regular shadow stuff gives no xp and the Courts of Chaos was beyond their reach, then only infighting would work, but that seems like an excessive amount of points considering only once was there a fight to the death, or nearly so.
What i probably missed but wanted to ask, how do you handle time dilation? Can the PCs just jump into a Shadow with diffrent speed and then for example Shape-Shift to adapt and by that power manage to advance way faster? Just by that they could powerlevel, even if they only advance when competing with other of amberites or chaosites who says the ycant go in groups?
Sure, just like any of the major players in Amber or the Courts could. Of course, that tends not to happen because pesky siblings, enemies, and ex-lovers tend to show up (if you're not making your own trouble.) Corwin only got a vacation because he had major head trauma. :-)
The effects of time dilation are sort of explained in the rule books, and yes a PC or group of PCs can go to a fast time shadow spend 10 to 20 years training and then come back with enough skill to have an advantage in a given situation, with only a month or two having elapsed in that shadow (especially if that shadow is Amber, remembering that by cannon time flows 10 times faster at the Courts than it does in Amber). That is not to say they get a free ride. Whilst I manage what rates of time streams are available, characters can only gain and/or develop skills, powers, abilities if they have the CP available to spend, and they only get CP from progressing the story line in some manner. Now this progression may specifically relate to some goal of the character, or another character, or it may actually relate to some element I'd set up in terms of plot.
In relation to the "Elder Amberites" or at least those still around in my campaign they as a base have about 50 times the CP of the PCs, so a PC taking on one of the Elders has never arisen, even my NPC intermediary(who has about 5 times the CP of the PCs) generally won't mess with the "Elders", but that doesn't mean they're not prepared to stick 2 fingers up to them, ignore them, or be generally uncooperative.
Ok, advancing the story is great ill take that as advancing the CP.
I also agree that the Shadows threats and wonders dont get used enough, there should be things out there that can kill even the Elders or make them go nope and im outta here. For example when in the first book when Corwin and Random were traveling to Amber there was that car pile up. Something big was eating the cars. They were not interested in proceeding, not clear if it was because they wanted to reach Amber faster or because it was clear the monster was too big to kill. I guess its just not fun enough to go slaying Godzilla with a sword.