What does Thari sound like? Does it resemble any particular language from Earth?
Have you ever used it in any meaningful way in a campaign, or do you just speak English all the time and say "we're speaking in thari"?
RPGPundit
I've never paid much attention to it. We always speak English because none of the players or GM's I've encountered speak Thari.
I don't allow Thari to be a "universal translator" of shadow languages. So if the Players end up in a backwater shadow, they may need to learn a new language.
In my imagination, thari bears resemblance to a "fifth Celtic" language per the historical analog.
The kicker I sometimes add is when folks new to Amber are trying to express jargon or 'folk sayings' in Thari. That can be fun.
Quoteexample:
What's the Thari equivalent to "beware of greeks bearing gifts" ? This sort of cultural shorthand may or may not have equivalent meaning in Amber.
The way I see it, as far as cultural analogues in language, I don't worry about it.
I figure the pipeline that is Flora probably pumped more of Earth's culture into Amber than any other three shadows put together. Anything the PC's say which seem to be too Earth-centric can be blamed on her.
I would figure that if Thari is the One True Language of which all other languages are just shadows, then the one most close to it on Earth would probably be Sanskrit.
RPGPundit
Nods. That's interesting. I've been using the visual like the below for old Thari:
(http://home.comcast.net/~arrefmak/sigsway.gif)
Quote from: RPGPunditI would figure that if Thari is the One True Language of which all other languages are just shadows, then the one most close to it on Earth would probably be Sanskrit.
Thari is actually the name for a real-world language or cant used by the Irish travellers, and I'm pretty sure it was a deliberate reference by Zelazny given the Celtic/English folklore of Amber (Avalon, etc.). I put together a page on the topic for our last Amber game:
http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/amber/sheltathari.html
This is fascinating stuff John. Thanks for posting the link. I wasn't aware of the connection to the Travellers.
It would kind of make and odd sort of sense that Zelazny would have the Gypsies speaking a language that belongs to the ultimate "wanderers", the Amberites.
RPGPundit
Now I'm mixing up the film Snatch and Amber. Not sure if that's a good thing or not. :D Good page, passing that on to some of the more language/Celtic minded of my group.
Knee-jerk question. Is Thari used in the game book text? The use of cants in RPGs hasn't been that well received AFAIK from AD&D's Aligntment Tongues/Thieves Cant, Plancescape, and Gygax's Canting Crew book from TLG. Doesn't have to be though IMO.
I do like a bit of language in play for spice but not so that it gets in the way of the rules or the game. If a player wants to spend the time on it cool but have a translation ready.
Thari's hardly mentioned at all in the game text. Since Corwin never tells us what it sounds like, noone really knows.
This offers the opportunity for game participants to make that decision.
The only place I've seen Thari referenced is in the 'Complete Amber Sourcebook' where there are more than a few extrapolations. Might add color and certainly would not get in the way of the rules.
Quote from: ArrefThe only place I've seen Thari referenced is in the 'Complete Amber Sourcebook' where there are more than a few extrapolations. Might add color and certainly would not get in the way of the rules.
The "Complete Amber Sourcebook" seems to contain quite a few extrapolations from the canon. I wish that the author would have gone through more effort to indicate which things are really from the books and which things were created by him; in some cases it appears that whole entries are just fabricated...
It's not that I don't like extra depth, I'd just like to be certain which parts are "real" and which parts are the creation of another author altogether.
Quote from: finarvynThe "Complete Amber Sourcebook" seems to contain quite a few extrapolations from the canon.
Yes, don't get me started. :)
It would have been great if highlighted or tagged in some way.
I mean, the book doesn't even contain a reference to several canon elements. Hardly complete.
gREAT THREAD... i WAS AWARE OF THE cELTIC CONNECTION, BUT APPRECIATED THE WEB-PAGE REFERENCE - THANKS
As far as IMC goes, obstruction of language is a story-line tool.
I believe since All language is based on Thari - even the Courts have a stylized version (more ancient?) than Amber, it would stand to reason that most Amberites wouldn't have a trouble with understanding or grasping the languages of any Shadow, unless it was specifically designed not to be readily grasped.
This helps advance story, and keeps it more intriguing when the gods run across languages they don't understand.
It just works that way best for me & my players.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhatki_language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhatki_language)
Could be a coincidence, of course... Just thought I'd share anyway.
Got to agree with Gabriel. the language in use in a particular situation is always understandable unless it not being understandable advances the plot.
So unless 2 players decide that they will always talk in Cree when using trump, or I don't want that player to understand Oberon's conversation with the pirate prince then it's all understandable.
A true use of language in a game would be clumsy and unmanageable. Why do you think Gygax invented Common in the first place :-)
Yeah, I always thought of it as the lesser beings striving to understand the greater beings... not the other way around.
Accent & dialect enrich story detail.
Inability to understand conversations is a real hurdle in game play.
I usually take language as a given everywhere.
Earth is unique in that Corwin isn't speaking Thari there.
Perhaps that's an aspect of it that Eric (or Flora or whoever found it in the first place) added in order to make it that much more hostile to Amberites arriving for the first time?
It could be that everyone consciously or unconsciously picks Shadows where the people speak a language they understand. So 'choosing' to have a world with an 'unknown' language is a sort of tactical choice.
That being said, for simplicity I would let Pattern (and possibly Logrus) give initiates greater/quicker facility with learning languages rather than out-and-out universal translation.
Quote from: Rel FexiveIt could be that everyone consciously or unconsciously picks Shadows where the people speak a language they understand. So 'choosing' to have a world with an 'unknown' language is a sort of tactical choice.
That being said, for simplicity I would let Pattern (and possibly Logrus) give initiates greater/quicker facility with learning languages rather than out-and-out universal translation.
& Otha both have good points and I agree, this is basically how I run my campaign on language.
I really like Otha's progression on Eric's details of Corwin's banishment.
It would be
real interesting reading Eric's side of things.