We've been talking about this some in the other thread, and there appears to be two divergent opinions of the time necessary to cast a spell using Sorcery in the Amber Diclessless roleplaying game.
My reading of the book has always been that it takes several minutes per lynchpin, and therefore several minutes to cast each and every spell.
Some have brought up the idea that each lynchpin should only require an utterance and then the spell is off.
The latter idea is much more in-line with the Merlin cycle - the best example of casting times being Merlin's battle with Mask. If it took several minutes to drop two tons of flowers, it probably would not have been a surprise.
So, weigh in. Where do people stand with this?
//Panjumanju
Quote from: Panjumanju;702184So, weigh in. Where do people stand with this?
//Panjumanju
I have read all the novels. Complex spells must be built before and can then be triggered quite quickly. From scratch, something powerful should take at least ~5-10 minutes.
I thought we had covered this.
Each lynchpin adds 10-15 minutes to the casting of the spell but he spell is 'cast' and hung at a point after which utteriing the lynchpin will see it resolve.
So the book isn't clear because the concepts of hung and cast are separate to the point at which the spell resolves.
So you can create a spell from 3 micro spells and it takes say 45 minutes then you wind in 2 lynchpins one for magic of shadow one for opponent which you specify as a pointing guesture which adds another 20 -30 minutes.
At the point the spell is cast and can be hung in a suitable recepticle.
Now when you want a spell you have cast that is hung to resolve you insert the lynchpins you say the shadow name and point your fingure at the target in this case which takes moments and the cast spell resolves.
If you are not hanging a spell there is no point adding lynchpins you can incorporate the target magic of shadow and all that directly into the spell fabric.
Lynchpins are only useful for hung spells to add flexibility and more lynchpins increases the time to resolve by one word each time. So if the lynchpin for a teleport other spell was magic of shadow, target, destination then to resolve a hung version of the spell takes as long as saying Amber, Caine, Avernus
So the key things to remember are
i) the spell is cast as its hung
ii) releasing the lynchpins resolves the spell
iii) lynchpins take a10 -15 minutes to add to a spell at time of casting but only take a word or guesture each at time of resolution
For this reason a sensible sorcerer prepares and hangs multiple versions of the same spell. One for flexibility with many lynchpins, one for common use in typical circumstance one with minimal lynchpins for use in combat and maybe one with exotic lynchpins if you want to avoid magic being shut down by silence or darkness or being tied up.
I typically have an item that can speak and sing in tongues and voices and can rack and use named and numbered spells. Then it can take care of basic defensive duties like teleporting you out of trouble if shit gets too serious, a zero lynchpin teleport is pretty quick....
I have also given said devices the ability to mould shadow reality and combat mastery then they can alter the shadow to give you combat advantages, like turning opponent's ground to mud or quicksand or summoning gusts of wind etc etc at the same time they knwo the best time to cast offensive spells for maximum effect. Of course such things are not cheap....
Quote from: jibbajibba;702187I thought we had covered this.
Clearly, we haven't adequately covered this at all - as demonstrated: two replies and opposite answers.
//Panjumanju
The novels are different (and not self consistent) than the rulebook.
Quote from: RTrimmer;702355The novels are different (and not self consistent) than the rulebook.
All the novels add is the ability to tap into a power scource directly and just blast someone with that roughly shaping the effect as you go. When Merlin preps his spells to attack the Keep of the Four Worlds the methodology mirrors that in the books
Later in the battle itself he starts to tap into the raw power of the font
Quote from: Panjumanju;702324Clearly, we haven't adequately covered this at all - as demonstrated: two replies and opposite answers.
//Panjumanju
With due to respect to Arduin he wasn't about for the last discussion and I don't think his answer and mine differ greatly mine is just more comprehensive.
A couple of things:
In
Sign of Chaos Merlin devises or modifies and hangs a spell
on the Logrus for banishing possessing spirits,
while riding on horseback with Coral, who notices nothing.
Then there's the bit, quoted in
Shadow Knight, about needing to take time to practice your set of hung spells so as to be able to cast them fast and reliably in a crisis. Which he never does, IIRC.
Quote from: jibbajibba;702389All the novels add is the ability to tap into a power scource directly and just blast someone with that roughly shaping the effect as you go. When Merlin preps his spells to attack the Keep of the Four Worlds the methodology mirrors that in the books
Later in the battle itself he starts to tap into the raw power of the font
Quote from: RTrimmer;702412A couple of things:
In Sign of Chaos Merlin devises or modifies and hangs a spell on the Logrus for banishing possessing spirits, while riding on horseback with Coral, who notices nothing.
Then there's the bit, quoted in Shadow Knight, about needing to take time to practice your set of hung spells so as to be able to cast them fast and reliably in a crisis. Which he never does, IIRC.
But those two things , hanging a spell whilst engaged in a mundane activity such as riding and making sure you grok your hung spells so you don't fumble whent eh heat is on are in no way counter to the spell system as written in the rule book.
We assume that Merlin isn't engaged in heated coversation with Coral but that they are riding along pretty much in silence. I woudl rule that simply as the spell prep taking a bit longer. (Or I would have an advanced Sorcery partial power that allowed a sorcerer to hang spells mentally with little or no show which I agree is modding the rules).
Quote from: Panjumanju;702184So, weigh in. Where do people stand with this?
The rule is... several minutes to build the lynchpin as you hang the spell.
A gesture or 'key phrase' for each lynchpin sets it off.
Quote from: jibbajibba;702390With due to respect to Arduin he wasn't about for the last discussion and I don't think his answer and mine differ greatly mine is just more comprehensive.
I think you are correct. Thank you for reconciling these perspectives. I can now go forth and run better Amber.
//Panjumanju
This is an attachment with my sorcery info. Casting times, hanging them, relative power etc.
just my Thoughts, Again :)
Pocket dimensions with control of time flow are excellent for solving the casting and hanging time issue for sorcerers with one of the primal powers.
I've even had characters post normal magi in their personal shadows and pop in from time to time to refresh their memories and ready to cast spells from psychic contact. Most take precautions against their magi being co-opted by other PCs and NPCs, but everyone is pretty much vulnerable to Fiona and Suhuy. :)
Quote from: Taewakan;732545Pocket dimensions with control of time flow are excellent for solving the casting and hanging time issue for sorcerers with one of the primal powers.
Yup, and a headache for the GM to figure out how to make sure this doesn't just become a convenient runaround of the rules. Usually for me the solution lies in making sure that this is seen as an advantage that the PC's enemies will want to neutralize or sabotage somehow.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;733731Yup, and a headache for the GM to figure out how to make sure this doesn't just become a convenient runaround of the rules. Usually for me the solution lies in making sure that this is seen as an advantage that the PC's enemies will want to neutralize or sabotage somehow.
RPGPundit
I find this one of the biggest hurtles GMing - every game I've run there has been someone with Sorcery who wants to screw with time for spells.
The only successful tactic I've had is bring it back to Endurance. "Sure, you went into your shadow and slowed down time for all these spells...but you've been on your feet for 20 hours and it's 10am."
//Panjumanju
Quote from: Panjumanju;733749I find this one of the biggest hurtles GMing - every game I've run there has been someone with Sorcery who wants to screw with time for spells.
The only successful tactic I've had is bring it back to Endurance. "Sure, you went into your shadow and slowed down time for all these spells...but you've been on your feet for 20 hours and it's 10am."
//Panjumanju
I tend to instigate a max/min time flow of amber x5. So the courts run at amber x5 for example
Then i explicitly reference magic of shadow as a feature of each shadow and part of its profile are the strength Of spells cast as a multiplier (0 - 1.0) to psyche and the time it takes to hang magics and enchant objects. Needless to say faster shadows have slower magic casting times. Also the strength of magic part means sorcerers are always looking for sources of power like the keep of the four worlds that they can tap across shadow to increase their spell power.
I took EW's advice to cheat to heart. I make my formulas for things like time modification/adjustment based upon the Elders' attributes and powers. In my Amber-verse none of the PCs are anywhere near as old or experienced as the Elders, so anything new the PCs come up with falls under the classification of "been-there, done-that" for an Elder. Especially for Elders like Fiona, Brand and Caine in the Psyche-based department. You get the idea.
Elder+ NPCs like Oberon and Dworkin and Suhuy are only subject to manipulation by GROUPS of Elders. Three to one seems like a good ratio for a fifty-fifty chance of success vs. an Oberon level NPC. Nine Elders MIGHT have a chnce if they all focused on anyone above the Oberon-level, but what are the chances of that happening?
Dworkin and others like Suhuy aren't even at the mercy of POWERS like The Unicorn, the Pattern, The Logrus and The Serpent, though they may be in opposition to them and each other. At this level they play with the game, rather than with the players (Elders) or the pieces (PCs).
As an aside, I give the Elders a bonus to their stats/attributes based upon the level of their initiation into things like The Pattern, The Logrus, Trump Artisty, Shape Shifting and other Powers, like Advanced and Exalted and Forbidden ANYthing. This gives them a rough and ready advantage that the PCs cannot anticipate even if they've read the books/manuals.
Just a couple thoughts...
Quote from: jibbajibba;733771I tend to instigate a max/min time flow of amber x5. So the courts run at amber x5 for example
Wouldn't that x5 limit make Merlin's growing to adult hood in such a short span of time somewhat problematic?
Quote from: warp9;734012Wouldn't that x5 limit make Merlin's growing to adult hood in such a short span of time somewhat problematic?
Yes but Merlin isn't in my games :)
I just find in actual play the game is far easier to run if you state simple rules like this. Otherwise you get the... I head out to a really fast shadow with x100 Amber speed and I conjure an army of 1 million flying fire-breathing angels who can travel through shadow and who's abilities will work in amber then I conjure a general with Combat tactics at 64 points to lead them etc etc
Now in my games no one will do that but they could.
By laying down some simply rules up front around timeflow and casting etc the desire to do the obvious tricks diminishes and people have to think of other cleverer ways of earning an advantage.
Quote from: jibbajibba;734043Yes but Merlin isn't in my games :)
I just find in actual play the game is far easier to run if you state simple rules like this. Otherwise you get the... I head out to a really fast shadow with x100 Amber speed and I conjure an army of 1 million flying fire-breathing angels who can travel through shadow and who's abilities will work in amber then I conjure a general with Combat tactics at 64 points to lead them etc etc
Now in my games no one will do that but they could.
By laying down some simply rules up front around timeflow and casting etc the desire to do the obvious tricks diminishes and people have to think of other cleverer ways of earning an advantage.
And the other Elders haven't already thought of this and come up with a counter why?
The simple answer goes back to the degredation of non-Amber effects when they get close to Amber, let alone arrive IN Amber. Allowing a PC to try something like this is one way for them to earn HUGE bad stuff (in relation to the Elders and any other amber Allies) while being nothing more than a diversion for more serious enemies of Amber.
Or, a good talking-to from an elder explaining the way of the world/Amber to the PC. The conversation might go something like this: "Silly boy, Tricks are for kids."
I am seeing a lot of wishful thinking for game mechancs that will limit the PCs when creative DMing is all that is called for. Who said that the points are all powerful? I mean, who says you can't use an Amber trooper as a base normal for your conjuration? Or one of Julian's monsters from forest Arden?
(Hint: It is you, the DM, GM or ST.)
For some of us EW wasn't the be-all end-all of system creation, but his base idea is GREAT. Diceless? OMFingG! Genius.
But now we stand on his shoulders and go beyond the great and powerful EW.
Right? I mean, look at RPGPundit. Kudos in the extreme man.
Quote from: jibbajibba;734043Yes but Merlin isn't in my games :)
Fair enough. :)
Quote from: jibbajibba;734043I just find in actual play the game is far easier to run if you state simple rules like this. Otherwise you get the... I head out to a really fast shadow with x100 Amber speed and I conjure an army of 1 million flying fire-breathing angels who can travel through shadow and who's abilities will work in amber then I conjure a general with Combat tactics at 64 points to lead them etc etc
Now in my games no one will do that but they could.
By laying down some simply rules up front around timeflow and casting etc the desire to do the obvious tricks diminishes and people have to think of other cleverer ways of earning an advantage.
I agree that there is a potential issue along the lines of what you describe. However, I'm not sure that your ruling really fixes that underlying problem.
Quote from: warp9;734012Wouldn't that x5 limit make Merlin's growing to adult hood in such a short span of time somewhat problematic?
I would instead suggest that any shadows that are radically distorted in time span will be places that also have very strange physical laws, meaning that they're very difficult to survive in without Shapeshifting. And in following with that spectrum between order and chaos, these places would also all be much closer to the Courts than to Amber, meaning that they would be likely to have very weird and dangerous creatures, and to be likely to be claimed by some Chaos lord or another, and risk getting into some sticky political situations.