Sorcery Casting Times

[Panjumanju]

We've been talking about this some in the other thread, and there appears to be two divergent opinions of the time necessary to cast a spell using Sorcery in the Amber Diclessless roleplaying game.

My reading of the book has always been that it takes several minutes per lynchpin, and therefore several minutes to cast each and every spell.

Some have brought up the idea that each lynchpin should only require an utterance and then the spell is off.

The latter idea is much more in-line with the Merlin cycle - the best example of casting times being Merlin's battle with Mask. If it took several minutes to drop two tons of flowers, it probably would not have been a surprise.

So, weigh in. Where do people stand with this?

//Panjumanju

[Arduin]

So, weigh in. Where do people stand with this?

//Panjumanju

I have read all the novels.  Complex spells must be built before and can then be triggered quite quickly.  From scratch, something powerful should take at least ~5-10 minutes.

[jibbajibba]

I thought we had covered this.

Each lynchpin adds 10-15 minutes to the casting of the spell but he spell is 'cast' and hung at a point after which utteriing the lynchpin will see it resolve.

So the book isn't clear because the concepts of hung and cast are separate to the point at which the spell resolves.

So you can create a spell from 3 micro spells and it takes say 45 minutes then you wind in 2 lynchpins one for magic of shadow one for opponent which you specify as a pointing guesture which adds another 20 -30 minutes.
At the point the spell is cast and can be hung in a suitable recepticle.
Now when you want a spell you have cast that is hung to resolve you insert the lynchpins you say the shadow name and point your fingure at the target in this case which takes moments and the cast spell resolves.

If you are not hanging a spell there is no point adding lynchpins you can incorporate the target magic of shadow and all that directly into the spell fabric.
Lynchpins are only useful for hung spells to add flexibility and more lynchpins increases the time to resolve by one word each time. So if the lynchpin for a teleport other spell was magic of shadow, target, destination then to resolve a hung version of the spell takes as long as saying Amber, Caine, Avernus

So the key things to remember are
i) the spell is cast as its hung
ii) releasing the lynchpins resolves the spell
iii) lynchpins take a10 -15 minutes to add to a spell at time of casting but only take a word or guesture each at time of resolution

For this reason a sensible sorcerer prepares and hangs multiple versions of the same spell. One for flexibility with many lynchpins, one for common use in typical circumstance one with minimal lynchpins for use in combat and maybe one with exotic lynchpins if you want to avoid magic being shut down by silence or darkness or being tied up.

I typically have an item that can speak and sing in tongues and voices and can rack and use named and numbered spells. Then it can take care of basic defensive duties like teleporting you out of trouble if shit gets too serious, a zero lynchpin teleport is pretty quick....
I have also given said devices the ability to mould shadow reality and combat mastery then they can  alter the shadow to give you combat advantages, like turning opponent's ground to mud or quicksand or summoning gusts of wind etc etc at the same time they knwo the best time to  cast offensive spells for maximum effect. Of course such things are not cheap....

[Panjumanju]

I thought we had covered this.

Clearly, we haven't adequately covered this at all - as demonstrated: two replies and opposite answers.

//Panjumanju

[RTrimmer]

The novels are different (and not self consistent) than the rulebook.

[jibbajibba]

The novels are different (and not self consistent) than the rulebook.

All the novels add is the ability to tap into a power scource directly and just blast someone with that roughly shaping the effect as you go. When Merlin preps his spells to attack the Keep of the Four Worlds the methodology mirrors that in the books
Later in the battle itself he starts to tap into the raw power of the font

[jibbajibba]

Clearly, we haven't adequately covered this at all - as demonstrated: two replies and opposite answers.

//Panjumanju

With due to respect to Arduin he wasn't about for the last discussion and I don't think his answer and mine differ greatly mine is just more comprehensive.

[RTrimmer]

A couple of things:
In Sign of Chaos Merlin devises or modifies and hangs a spell on the Logrus for banishing possessing spirits, while riding on horseback with Coral, who notices nothing.

Then there's the bit, quoted in Shadow Knight, about needing to take time to practice your set of hung spells so as to be able to cast them fast and reliably in a crisis. Which he never does, IIRC.

All the novels add is the ability to tap into a power scource directly and just blast someone with that roughly shaping the effect as you go. When Merlin preps his spells to attack the Keep of the Four Worlds the methodology mirrors that in the books
Later in the battle itself he starts to tap into the raw power of the font

[jibbajibba]

A couple of things:
In Sign of Chaos Merlin devises or modifies and hangs a spell on the Logrus for banishing possessing spirits, while riding on horseback with Coral, who notices nothing.

Then there's the bit, quoted in Shadow Knight, about needing to take time to practice your set of hung spells so as to be able to cast them fast and reliably in a crisis. Which he never does, IIRC.

But those two things , hanging a spell whilst engaged in a mundane activity such as riding and making sure you grok your hung spells so you don't fumble whent eh heat is on are in no way counter to the spell system as written in the rule book.

We assume that Merlin isn't engaged in heated coversation with Coral but that they are riding along pretty much in silence. I woudl rule that simply as the spell prep taking a bit longer. (Or I would have an advanced Sorcery partial power that allowed a sorcerer to hang spells mentally with little or no show which I agree is modding the rules).

[Arref]

So, weigh in. Where do people stand with this?

The rule is... several minutes to build the lynchpin as you hang the spell.

A gesture or 'key phrase' for each lynchpin sets it off.

[Panjumanju]

With due to respect to Arduin he wasn't about for the last discussion and I don't think his answer and mine differ greatly mine is just more comprehensive.

I think you are correct. Thank you for reconciling these perspectives. I can now go forth and run better Amber.

//Panjumanju

[Artifacts of Amber]

This is an attachment with my sorcery info. Casting times, hanging them, relative power etc.

just my Thoughts, Again

[Taewakan]

Pocket dimensions with control of time flow are excellent for solving the casting and hanging time issue for sorcerers with one of the primal powers.

I've even had characters post normal magi in their personal shadows and pop in from time to time to refresh their memories and ready to cast spells from psychic contact. Most take precautions against their magi being co-opted by other PCs and NPCs, but everyone is pretty much vulnerable to Fiona and Suhuy.

[RPGPundit]

Pocket dimensions with control of time flow are excellent for solving the casting and hanging time issue for sorcerers with one of the primal powers.

Yup, and a headache for the GM to figure out how to make sure this doesn't just become a convenient runaround of the rules.  Usually for me the solution lies in making sure that this is seen as an advantage that the PC's enemies will want to neutralize or sabotage somehow.

RPGPundit

[Panjumanju]

Yup, and a headache for the GM to figure out how to make sure this doesn't just become a convenient runaround of the rules.  Usually for me the solution lies in making sure that this is seen as an advantage that the PC's enemies will want to neutralize or sabotage somehow.

RPGPundit

I find this one of the biggest hurtles GMing - every game I've run there has been someone with Sorcery who wants to screw with time for spells.

The only successful tactic I've had is bring it back to Endurance. "Sure, you went into your shadow and slowed down time for all these spells...but you've been on your feet for 20 hours and it's 10am."

//Panjumanju