cannon characters and homosexual/bisexuality

[Sargon]

I'm glad that my musings helped inspire you to try out a different take on one of the elders, Ivanhoe.  That's why I like these forums.  its a place to share ideas. :>

[Eniko]

And Fiona not wanting to use Julian as a puppet only shows, IMO, that she would much rather have Corwin as one, at least in that scene. And I do find that whole line of reasoning a little too male-chauvinistic.

As one of the fore mentioned LGBT players (I'm a gay girl) I have to say that I don't follow your logic. Male chauvinistic would be - to me - to tenaciously cling to an all heterosexual amberverse rather than making the one character who is most easily (re)interpreted as gay actually gay to please the players. Generally male-chauvinists are pretty anti-gay.

And as fun as it would be for my character - who is as gay as I am - to be slagged off for it/looked down upon for it by every elder she could possibly meet I tend to enjoy the fact that there are just one or two who wouldn't in the games I play in.

On to being less defensive:

No, see, I think that's wrong. I think Flora is psychologically incapable of loving anyone (except maybe her dear old dad). She's the flipside of the coin from Fiona. While fiona's childhood traumas shut her sexuality down completely; Flora's childhood issues left her with that kind of hole inside her soul that she fills with romance, glamour and sex, but can't actually see other human beings as something to be cherished. Other human beings are there to tell her how beautiful she is and to "love" HER. (because of course, she's extremely insecure, deep down, about her own beauty or lovability).

Amusingly the only time I have seen Flora truly love someone to the point of sacrificing herself for this other person was in our last game, where she was actually the bad guy and using my character for her ends.

Turns out the goodness in my character compelled her to truly love someone for the first time, and it happened to be a woman. After that I'm pretty much convinced that Flora could go with either gender so long as the person in question fills that hole in her soul.

Also, parting comment about Mandor: if he is interpreted as gay I don't think it's because he's less masculine, or has a more finesse touch to the things he does. It's more that he and Fiona found their perfect match and yet there's no evidence that they're boinking that makes him (and her) more plausibly gay.

[Trevelyan]

It's more that he and Fiona found their perfect match and yet there's no evidence that they're boinking that makes him (and her) more plausibly gay.

How much evidence do you want? Given that the books are narrated first person and they are unlikely to rut like rabbits in front of Merlin, we can only go by his accounts of their actions and interactions, starting with their first meeting in Sign of Chaos:

"I will retire," he said. "Honored to have met you, Princess.  I wish you lived a bit nearer the Rim."
She smiled.

"In that case, I would welcome his view of the problem, also.  Are you willing to come to me, Mandor?"
He bowed again, which I thought was hamming it a bit. "Anyplace, Madam," he responded.

I could not suppress a smile, but Fiona did not even notice. She was looking at Mandor.

And moving on to the later Trump conversation between Merlin and the pair of them:

As things came clearer I saw that Fiona was standing beside him, standing very close as a matter of fact.

You don't have to read between a lot of lines for get the impression that something other than mutual intellectual respect is going on there.

There are plenty of Amberites and Chaosites with no clearly expressed sexuality in the books, and it seems very strange to insist that a female character who clearly shows an interest in a male character is one of teh characters most likely to be gay.

[Syzygy]

Also, parting comment about Mandor: if he is interpreted as gay I don't think it's because he's less masculine, or has a more finesse touch to the things he does. It's more that he and Fiona found their perfect match and yet there's no evidence that they're boinking that makes him (and her) more plausibly gay.

I'm pretty sure that Mandor is gay.  At the very least, he's batting for both teams, which could explain his association with Fiona.

I don't think Fiona would waste her time flirting with someone who couldn't reciprocate.  And she woudn't miss something like Mandor being gay.  Of course, it's Amber, so anything is possible; beyond professional respect, they each may simply find the other a convenient way to disguise their true preference.

Maybe Fiona bats for both teams too?  It wouldn't be the first time two bisexual people of the opposite sex paired up.

Still, I never really got the impression that Fiona was lesbian or bisexual.  With Mandor, I definitely get a kind of gay vibe from him.

[Trevelyan]

I'm pretty sure that Mandor is gay.

Evidence? We see Mandor flirt quite directly with both Fiona and Jasra, are there any similar instances with male characters?

It's like saying that you think Corwin's favourite food is Spaghetti Bolognese purely because you get an "Italian Cuisine" vibe from him in the books and you choose to ignore the fact that Corwin describes the meals he eats on several occasions without mentioning Italian food, and generally shows far more interest in France than Italy.

This thread is getting silly - we have an array of characters with no clear sexual preference who could quite legitimately be interpreted as gay, and yet people are picking on a male and female character who clearly have some sort of relationship, and where the man flirts with every other attractive woman he meets, and insisting that these two are the most likely candidates for gay and lesbian characters in the books!

[Croaker]

I usually play Bleys as a closeted gay who tries to deny it subconsciouly by being a ladies man

That way, it is "in character" if he is gay, but this also gives me a good way to interpret him as an heterosexual womanizer. And, from one campain to another, the players can't know wether he's gay or not

[Syzygy]

Evidence? We see Mandor flirt quite directly with both Fiona and Jasra, are there any similar instances with male characters?

Have I accidentally logged on to the CBR Rumbles Forum?

Have you never met anyone you strongly suspected was gay by his very mannerisms and other subtle signs, even though you never saw him flirt with another man?  And even if you knew he dated or even slept with a woman?  It does happen.

Something about Mandor seems very gay to me, most notably the way everything he does is so very perfect down to the finest detail, and the extreme precision and finesse he brings to certain aspects of life: clothes, manners, speech, cooking....

It just comes from noting similarities to gay people you've met or observed or heard about.

[Syzygy]

I usually play Bleys as a closeted gay who tries to deny it subconsciouly by being a ladies man.

While it never occurred to me upon reading the series, yours is not the first campaign I've heard of where that's the case with him.

[Trevelyan]

I usually play Bleys as a closeted gay who tries to deny it subconsciouly by being a ladies man

That way, it is "in character" if he is gay, but this also gives me a good way to interpret him as an heterosexual womanizer. And, from one campain to another, the players can't know wether he's gay or not

I don't even know that Bleys needs to be considered that closeted, we are told remarkably little about his lifestyle. Bleys is certainly a character who could be gay without the need to attribute various insecurities.

Have you never met anyone you strongly suspected was gay by his very mannerisms and other subtle signs, even though you never saw him flirt with another man?  And even if you knew he dated or even slept with a woman?  It does happen.

I know several such people, some of whom have since come out and one of whom is now a woman. The difference being that I've actually met them and so can accurately assess their mannerisms where as the only evidence that you have in the Mandor case is that of someone writing him as a clearly hetrosexual man. Unless you can point to some particular manerisms that you feel are indicative of Mandor being a closet homosexual?

But by the same token, I have a few friends who are frequently mistaken for being gay and I'm pretty certain at this stage that they are not (it is remotely possible that they are al deeply in denial and that thair assorted wives, girlfirends and children are an attempt to hide from themselves).

Something about Mandor seems very gay to me, most notably the way everything he does is so very perfect down to the finest detail, and the extreme precision and finesse he brings to certain aspects of life: clothes, manners, speech, cooking....

Stereotype much? You've just described the vast majority of people that I know. Although I do know a few complete slobs, and one of them is gay (or possibly bi), so I'm not sure what Mandor's manners exactly prove here.

It just comes from noting similarities to gay people you've met or observed or heard about.

It comes from noting similarities to gay people that you've met or observed or heard about and ignoring any evidence to the contrary in both real life (those people who exhibit similar mannerisms but are not gay) and the fact that the character in the book flrits openly with at least two women and probably sleeps with one of them.

It's the balance of evidence that makes the Mandor case different from that of Bleys.

[Croaker]

I don't even know that Bleys needs to be considered that closeted, we are told remarkably little about his lifestyle. Bleys is certainly a character who could be gay without the need to attribute various insecurities.

Of course, this is just a guide to play him, not an indication on what he may truly be.

[Syzygy]

Of course, this is just a guide to play him, not an indication on what he may truly be.

I think most of us understand that, as only Zelazny gets to decide what they may truly be, and the rest of us are, essentially, exchanging ideas for a kind of fan fiction.

[darciesdaddy]

For one, I think it's stretching a bit to think that a books written decades ago have the same themes as a modern book. Far be it from me to speak for Roger Zelazny, I seriously doubt that the sexuality of the characters ever entered his mind. Back then, the 'default' would be that everyone is heterosexual, and the simple fact that a character isn't described as being interested in the opposite sex is far from proof that they are homosexual.

That being said, the thing about all art is it's open to individual interpretation. Anyone who wants to have any of the character gay or bi in their games or their minds is free to do so, but I don't see any 'proof' written in any of Zelazny's books.

As an aside, as a very heterosexual male (to whit; I find men repugnant enough in appearance and manner I've often said if I was born female I would undoubtably be a lesbian), I find the thought of Fiona and Flora being gay or bi to be quite... interesting,  despite whatever someone posted earlier about us heterosexual male's
hatred of gays.

[Croaker]

I will not talk about this
I will not talk about this
I will not talk about this

Or I will.

The 2 aren't mutually exclusive. Hatred of gay men can be common enough among heterosexual males, while female homosexuality, due to its "harem" connotations, can be accepted by these same males, who usually fail to see that lesbian characters would reject them and aren't waiting for a "true" man to show them the wonders of heterosexual sex.
Moreso, male homosexuality threatens one's sense of being a True, certainly non-gay, 100%-heterosexual male, which may create agressivity in some persons, while female homosexuality doesn't threaten this at all.

No offense intended, this isn't meant to attack or criticise you personnally, just a comment about how these pow aren't exclusive.

[darciesdaddy]

hehe No offense taken. I was actually making the same point, just using a personal anecdote rather than your more verbal description. And trying to express my opinion that, just because I don't think there is any evidence in the book that Fiona is a lesbian, it's not because I find the idea repulsive.

On another note, now that I remember some comments about how Flora wouldn't pinch hit because she saw other females as competition, I would like to toss in this opinion: Wrapping another woman around her finger and making her fall madly in love with you would be a fine way of proving your dominance over a potential rival. And also remove the threat of said rival.