Short stories and order...

[finarvyn]

I wish he had approved other authors writing in the Amberverse. By maintaining such a tight control over the IP, the net result would appear to be that the entire franchise is dying a slow and quiet death.

No new books. No new short stories. No movie or scifi miniseries. No movement on the RPG in a decade. You can't find many active webpages for campaigns anymore. Roger's books are hardly ever in bookstores.

Essentially, Amber is dying and no one appears able or willling to stop the bleeding.

[jibbajibba]

I wish he had approved other authors writing in the Amberverse. By maintaining such a tight control over the IP, the net result would appear to be that the entire franchise is dying a slow and quiet death.

No new books. No new short stories. No movie or scifi miniseries. No movement on the RPG in a decade. You can't find many active webpages for campaigns anymore. Roger's books are hardly ever in bookstores.

Essentially, Amber is dying and no one appears able or willling to stop the bleeding.

There was some movie and tv interest. Warner Brothers were working on a treatment about 10 years ago and the Sci Fi channel had rights to a mini series... but all came to nought.

What really suprises me though is that more of ADRPG didn't become standard in the RPG sphere. The attribute auction is the obvious one. I can see the diceless mechanic  causing issues cos it's diceless but also because there are very few rules to it so it's going to turn off a lot of folks but even so you would have expected to appear in some other formats.

[Rainsford]

I was okay with the betancourt novels until the third one. Yes they were bad but I was happy to read about amber again. There was a lot of possiblities to them but I believe he screwed them up with a prequell with oberon. If he created his own character or even did a event like the battle of gheneth. It might have been more accepted. Instead he rushed it and did a half ass job. The Merlin series I didn't like but enjoy reading them because they are amber books. Though I believe zelanzy wrote them for gamers.

[downeymb]

What really suprises me though is that more of ADRPG didn't become standard in the RPG sphere. The attribute auction is the obvious one. I can see the diceless mechanic  causing issues cos it's diceless but also because there are very few rules to it so it's going to turn off a lot of folks but even so you would have expected to appear in some other formats.

There's a game called Zombie Murder Mystery produced by the folks at dungeonmastering.com that uses the attribute auction.  You can tell they've played Amber.

[finarvyn]

13. Prolog to "The Trumps of Doom" (Merlin POV; 1985)
14. “The Salesman's Tale” (Luke POV; 1994)
20. “The Shroudling and the Guisel” (Merlin POV; 1995)
21. “Coming to a Cord” (Frakir POV; 1995)
22. “Blue Horse, Dancing Mountains” (Corwin POV; 1995)
23. “Hall of Mirrors” (Corwin POV; published 1996)
24. “A Secret in Amber” (Corwin POV; 1995)

Interesting to note that The Collected Stories of Roger Zelazny puts Ed Greenwood's yarn a lot earlier than my list.

Prolog to Trumps of Doom
A Secret of Amber (with Ed Greenwood)
The Salesman's Tale
Blue Horse, Dancing Mountains
The Shroudling and the Guisel
Coming to a Cord
Hall of Mirrors

I'm not sure of their rationalle for this, but perhaps they tie it back to actual order written as opposed to order it might fit better in the chronology. I still need to read the CSoRZ to see what (if anything) they have to say about it.

[RPGPundit]

I wish he had approved other authors writing in the Amberverse. By maintaining such a tight control over the IP, the net result would appear to be that the entire franchise is dying a slow and quiet death.

No new books. No new short stories. No movie or scifi miniseries. No movement on the RPG in a decade. You can't find many active webpages for campaigns anymore. Roger's books are hardly ever in bookstores.

Essentially, Amber is dying and no one appears able or willling to stop the bleeding.

But surely you're not saying that having other authors write derivative stories of the original opus is the only good way to preserve a legacy?
If the Amber legacy is not doing well, its not because R.A. Salvatore (or Neil Gaiman, for that matter) isn't writing a dozen amber knock-off novels.
Look at Lord of the Rings, the works of Asimov or Heinlein. These don't have series written in their universes, and they continue to be popular. On the other hand, Dune has had an entire series of utterly shit novels written about it that have done nothing but harm to the original novel.

I think that if Zelazny is doing poorly in terms of legacy, its for one of two reasons: either Zelazny is just not that great or not that relevant (which I do not believe to be the case) or the people in charge of his estate are really blundering the opportunities to handle it because they had a blinkered-vision of choosing the cheapest crappiest method of making a quick buck.
Does anyone think that in this day and age you could end up making Lord of Light, Jack of Shadows, or Amber (not to mention any other number of Zelazny works) as spectacular movie or tv-fare?

RPGPundit

[RPGPundit]

What really suprises me though is that more of ADRPG didn't become standard in the RPG sphere. The attribute auction is the obvious one. I can see the diceless mechanic  causing issues cos it's diceless but also because there are very few rules to it so it's going to turn off a lot of folks but even so you would have expected to appear in some other formats.

The ADRPG, along with Over the Edge (that came out fairly close to the same time) both ended up being INCREDIBLY influential in RPG-concepts, but more on a meta-scale than in the borrowing of specific mechanical concepts. Those two are like the Velvet Underground of RPGs; if they sold a thousand copies, they inspired a thousand records.

Also, I can think of no other RPG written in the early 90s with no significant product release in the last 15 years that has as huge a fandom, and entire conventions dedicated to it; its really unique. Can you think of any other RPG line who's last product came out in 1994 that has had anywhere near the ongoing success?

RPGPundit

[jibbajibba]

The ADRPG, along with Over the Edge (that came out fairly close to the same time) both ended up being INCREDIBLY influential in RPG-concepts, but more on a meta-scale than in the borrowing of specific mechanical concepts. Those two are like the Velvet Underground of RPGs; if they sold a thousand copies, they inspired a thousand records.

Also, I can think of no other RPG written in the early 90s with no significant product release in the last 15 years that has as huge a fandom, and entire conventions dedicated to it; its really unique. Can you think of any other RPG line who's last product came out in 1994 that has had anywhere near the ongoing success?

RPGPundit

Exactly my point its a game that on its own merits has survived against the odds which means it has something going for it and yet I don't think it has any influence on other games. Aside from the obsure example quoted by downeymb and the diceless Nobilis perhaps I can think of no other games that embrace any of the Amber principles which I would list as

i) Diceless mechanic - with focus on roleplay supplementing attribute comparison to resolve conflicts
ii) Internal group antagonism - PCs are not a party but individually driven agents who's objectivies are often conflicted and opposed
iii) Attribute auction as an alternative point buy system
iv) So much focus on PC character to the extent where the characters skills and attributes are secondary to 'backstory' and roleplay

Now to be fair I haven't played many new games in the last 15 years and I may well have missed a glut of games that carried these traits but certainly none are mentioned on this board. Game of thrones might have had some elements coming as it does from a similar origin (ie a novel where the protagonists are in conflict).

[Evermasterx]

Exactly my point its a game that on its own merits has survived against the odds which means it has something going for it and yet I don't think it has any influence on other games. Aside from the obsure example quoted by downeymb and the diceless Nobilis perhaps I can think of no other games that embrace any of the Amber principles which I would list as

I'd add to the list Everway, surely influenced by ADRPG.

[Evermasterx]

But surely you're not saying that having other authors write derivative stories of the original opus is the only good way to preserve a legacy?
If the Amber legacy is not doing well, its not because R.A. Salvatore (or Neil Gaiman, for that matter) isn't writing a dozen amber knock-off novels.
Look at Lord of the Rings, the works of Asimov or Heinlein. These don't have series written in their universes, and they continue to be popular. On the other hand, Dune has had an entire series of utterly shit novels written about it that have done nothing but harm to the original novel.

I think that if Zelazny is doing poorly in terms of legacy, its for one of two reasons: either Zelazny is just not that great or not that relevant (which I do not believe to be the case) or the people in charge of his estate are really blundering the opportunities to handle it because they had a blinkered-vision of choosing the cheapest crappiest method of making a quick buck.
Does anyone think that in this day and age you could end up making Lord of Light, Jack of Shadows, or Amber (not to mention any other number of Zelazny works) as spectacular movie or tv-fare?

RPGPundit

Totally agree with you: Zelazny won 6 Hugo and 3 Nebula. Those are facts that prove he is a relevant writer.

[Jason D]

Does anyone think that in this day and age you could end up making Lord of Light, Jack of Shadows, or Amber (not to mention any other number of Zelazny works) as spectacular movie or tv-fare?

Actually, yes. I think that Jack of Shadows is tremendously suitable for film adaptation.

Other works that would be awesome as films are Wilderness, Roadmarks, A Dark Traveling, A Night in the Lonesome October, Bring me the Head of Prince Charming (this, plus the sequels would make awesome Shrek-style animated films), Doorways in the Sand, This Immortal, Damnation Alley (again), and many of his short stories.

Call me a heretic, but I think that Amber is one of the least filmable things he's written, in terms of the scope, the number of characters, the pacing, and the narrative challenges.

[finarvyn]

Call me a heretic, but I think that Amber is one of the least filmable things he's written, in terms of the scope, the number of characters, the pacing, and the narrative challenges.

You're a heretic.

I think that Amber is potentially very filmable, but it has to be done right. You would have to give the plot time to develop, much like Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings. You couldn't do much with Amber in a single 90-minute movie.

[finarvyn]

But surely you're not saying that having other authors write derivative stories of the original opus is the only good way to preserve a legacy?

Certainly not, but I am suggesting that new material often attracts new readers.

Tolkien has had success by (1) having his books continually in print, (2) by having extra books like HOME published, (3) by having role-playing, wargame, and miniatures gaming products printed, and (4) by having cartoons and eventually movies. If Tolkien's books had gone out of print and no additional things would have been created, perhaps he would vanish from the shelves as well no matter how good the books might be.

Zelazny's books are hard to find, the games are even more rare and not supported. At least when the Betancourt books came out there was some level of "buzz" and something with Zelazny's name and Amber on a shelf somewhere.

[downeymb]

Aside from the obsure example quoted by downeymb

Zombie Murder Mystery just came out in the last few months I think.  We'll see if it catches on.

ii) Internal group antagonism - PCs are not a party but individually driven agents who's objectivies are often conflicted and opposed

I would add the game Paranoia to that list.  Very Orwellian fun where everybody kills and blames each other.  Not very good for a long extended campaign though.

[jibbajibba]

Zombie Murder Mystery just came out in the last few months I think.  We'll see if it catches on.



I would add the game Paranoia to that list.  Very Orwellian fun where everybody kills and blames each other.  Not very good for a long extended campaign though.

It also predates ADRPG by about 12 years so ...