Shapeshifting not cannonly needed to have Logrus?

[charis]

So I was thinking about the Logrus and shapeshifting, and was wondering when it's mentioned in the books that shapeshifting is required to traverse/walk the Logrus. And I couldn't find a single entry!

The things I did find were references to nine turns and that it was kept in a cavern, and that it changes/shifts around a lot. But, if you're walking it, and it's moving around, that doesn't neccessarily mean you need shapeshifting, that's mroe of a bit of luck and a strong mind. (Or one that can handle going mad for a time and coming back)

Thoughts?

[Sidrick]

The only description I know about of traversing the Logrus is in the prologue to Trumps of Doom, and there isn't any specific mention of shapeshifting.  However Oberon mentioned that the lords of Chaos were shapeshifters (during the discussion between Oberon and Corwin about why O. sic'ed Dara on C), and Dara mentions that it's instinctive (or something like that) when Corwin asks her about her physical changes when negotiating the Pattern.

[finarvyn]

From Trumps of Doom, Chapter 6

"They have a sort of equivalent called the Logrus. It's a kind of chaotic maze. Keeps shifting about. Very dangerous. Unbalances you mentally, too, for a time. No fun."

My interpretation here is that the Logrus isn't at all linear but is twisty and constantly changing.

I closed my eyes and visualized an image of the Logrus--shifting, ever shifting. I framed my desire and two of the swimming lines within the eidolon increased in brightness and thickness. I moved my arms, slowly, imitating their undulations, their jerkings. Finally, the lines and my arms seemed to be one, and I opened my hands and extended the lines outward, outward through Shadow.

This doesn't actually say that you need to be able to shape-shift, but certainly seems to imply that Merlin's body is waving to match the Logrus somehow and this sounds unnatural to me.

So, while I agree that there is no direct quote I can find that says that you need to be able to shape-shift in order to master the Logrus, I think it is a logical conclusion based on Zelazny's details.

[weilide]

This doesn't actually say that you need to be able to shape-shift, but certainly seems to imply that Merlin's body is waving to match the Logrus somehow and this sounds unnatural to me.

Yes, my take has always been that at the point of connection Merlin's digits are merging with the Logrus in a way that would require shapeshifting, at least at a micro level.

[AshenHaze]

I'm not so certain about the shape shifting myself.  It seemed to me as if Brand had gained the Logrus in the first give books, and he never showed any shape shifting.  I think it's a dangerous place and the adaptability of shapeshifting would be very helpful for getting through.  But perhaps someone lucky or well prepared with other means could traverse it as well.

I'm curious to peoples thoughts on the items that seem to come out with the character from walking the Logrus.  Such as Frakir, or Mandor's spell casting spheres.  In the complete amber sourcebook it implies that items going with a person come out magical.  And in the books I believe he says that Frakir was built from his sub conscious.  In my games I've taken that as sort of the other reward for walking the Logrus, Pattern users get to teleport whenever they do it, Logrus users are granted an item.

[Sidrick]

It seemed to me as if Brand had gained the Logrus in the first give books, and he never showed any shape shifting.

I've always accredited his exceptional powers to his mastery of Pattern and more importantly, Trump.  There isn't much that he did, or was reported to have done, that he couldn't have used his superior knowledge of Trump for.

I'm curious to peoples thoughts on the items that seem to come out with the character from walking the Logrus.

In my games, rare as it is that someone negotiates the Logrus, if they don't bring an object with them /specifically/ to be infused with some power from the Logrus, they get nothing.  And I make them pay for the object if they do decide to bring it with them so as to be infused with the Logrus.  It also makes it harder to traverse that twisting sign if a character has brought an item to be so enchanted, the character has to split their concentration (Psyche) between finding the correct path and keeping their object from being lost or destroyed in the process.  But then again. I've killed more characters walking the Pattern than the Logrus.

[AshenHaze]

I remember reading a phrase where he had come to an understanding of that darkness or chaos, which lead me to believe he had traversed the Logrus.  I like the idea of the player getting an item, though I would design it and give it to them instead.

[Sidrick]

I remember reading a phrase where he had come to an understanding of that darkness or chaos, which lead me to believe he had traversed the Logrus.  I like the idea of the player getting an item, though I would design it and give it to them instead.

I've always considered Brands comment to be more reflective of his own personal issues, though without a doubt your reading of the passage is equally valid.

And as to the item, indeed.  The player chooses the form, but I assign the qualities of it.  Which has lead some players to feel a bit cheated at first, since lets face it, I'm pretty unlikely to give a Primal Damage to Order weapon to the rank 1 Warfare holder.

In a similar vein, if other people provide empowered objects to those that walk the Logrus, how do you determine the objects point value?  I've used Psyche, Endurance and Stuff, or a combination of the first two in the past to create the point values.  And I've never really been happy with any of the processes.  I've been thinking about just throwing out the system next time and creating the object willy nilly, basing it purely on what I think will best help the character/drive the plot.

[AshenHaze]

I discarded the Item creation rules from the rulebook pretty early on.  I felt that it didn't feel like the rest of the game, it was rather crunchy and not that hard to abuse.  I currently use a tiered system, in which the character's pitch an item to me and we select a tier, a tier one item being the most basic and a tier 7 item being something like Grayswandir, with primal power.  Each tier is 4 points each.  It has worked pretty well for me in the last few games I've run.  I never really liked the idea that certain weapons did "deadly damage" or the like, always felt a sword wound was pretty much a sword wound.

[charis]

I remember reading a phrase where he had come to an understanding of that darkness or chaos, which lead me to believe he had traversed the Logrus.  I like the idea of the player getting an item, though I would design it and give it to them instead.

She handed me the ball. I took it and weighed it in the palm of my right hand. I had no idea how the
things functioned. The metal balls were to Mandor what Frakir was to me-a piece of idiosyncratic
personal magic, forged out of his unconscious in the heart of the Logrus.

Merlin in Knight Of Shadows

[weilide]

I remember reading a phrase where he had come to an understanding of that darkness or chaos, which lead me to believe he had traversed the Logrus.  I like the idea of the player getting an item, though I would design it and give it to them instead.

We're given quite a bit of evidence in the Merlin series (including several direct assertions from people who ought to know) that Brand's "Living Trump" ability is the result of his dunk in the Font of the Four Worlds. While an ironclad case is probably not possible with the information given, the Font does seem to be the most parsimonious hypothesis, especially given that Jurt is able to blip around the way Brand could but other non-bathed Logrus masters (such as Merlin) cannot.

[jibbajibba]

We're given quite a bit of evidence in the Merlin series (including several direct assertions from people who ought to know) that Brand's "Living Trump" ability is the result of his dunk in the Font of the Four Worlds. While an ironclad case is probably not possible with the information given, the Font does seem to be the most parsimonious hypothesis, especially given that Jurt is able to blip around the way Brand could but other non-bathed Logrus masters (such as Merlin) cannot.

Yes but that wasn't the case in the first books. The font is added later and Brand's power is changed to suit.
I certainly got the idea that Brand drew a trump in his head then steped through it.
As for shapeshifting all Amberites and Chaosites are shapeshifters, it's inherrent. The Amberites just don't know it. That is how Corwin regrows his eyes. Its a subconscious use of shapeshifting. The Chaosites are just exposed to it more so its natural for them.

[weilide]

Yes but that wasn't the case in the first books. The font is added later and Brand's power is changed to suit.

I agree that RZ probably didn't have the Font in mind in the first series but in what sense do you feel that Brand's power was altered?

[jibbajibba]

I agree that RZ probably didn't have the Font in mind in the first series but in what sense do you feel that Brand's power was altered?

I have paid the price and learnt the last of Dworkin's law.

In the first books knowledge is power. When Fiona takes Corwin to the Primal pattern we see that she knows more than he does. When Jurt baths in the font the still knows nothing.
I agree that the power seems similar though there is no suggestion that Brand gets any "tougher" as a result of his power. The source however is totally different.
No way that Oberon would have left the font sitting there.

[weilide]

No way that Oberon would have left the font sitting there.

Agreed, unless he had some asset looking after it that was displaced, possibly at the time he was temporarily neutralized by chaos. Another possibility is that the ritual that confers the living trump powers is sufficiently counterintuitive that nobody, Oberon included, saw the danger until Brand worked it out for himself.