Shadow Knight price

[Panjumanju]

If a PC has experience and has tried out stuff they can use pattern defense but if they never thought ot if ..... that is what partial pattern gives you.

If they never thought of it then they can just have purchased it and never used it to the full extent...that's their loss. I could see partial powers as a way of breaking up in-game expense, but never as a way of custom-building, or cheating expense at character creation. It seems very contrary to the spirit of the powers.

//Panjumanju

[daniel_ream]

Powers int eh books are not monolithic they are quirky. its like there is this huge mass of stuff pattern can do but each character has a slightly different take on it and a slightly differnt set of skills.

That's because in the books each character is a unique individual, and not a symbolic thing created by picking some from column A and some from column B on a short list of quantified and quantized powers.

ADRPG is kind of schizophrenic in that on the one hand it makes a big deal out of not having hard and fast rules for resolving character actions and especially growth, and on the other hand it provides monolithic, quantified and quantized lists of powers.

The best way to reconcile the characters in the books with the RPG is to assume that what's in the book is only for 100 point starting characters who are young and inexperienced, and that all the elder Scions of Amber started with Pattern Imprint or Trump Artistry and from there developed their own unique powers and tricks through the make-it-up-as-you-go advancement system.

Wujcik himself said that points just stop mattering entirely once you've had an advancement or two, so Caine does not in fact have Trump Tricks (15); he started with Pattern Imprint and just learned how to use the Trumps more effectively via his player spending game time and effort to develop the ability.

[jibbajibba]

That's because in the books each character is a unique individual, and not a symbolic thing created by picking some from column A and some from column B on a short list of quantified and quantized powers.

ADRPG is kind of schizophrenic in that on the one hand it makes a big deal out of not having hard and fast rules for resolving character actions and especially growth, and on the other hand it provides monolithic, quantified and quantized lists of powers.

The best way to reconcile the characters in the books with the RPG is to assume that what's in the book is only for 100 point starting characters who are young and inexperienced, and that all the elder Scions of Amber started with Pattern Imprint or Trump Artistry and from there developed their own unique powers and tricks through the make-it-up-as-you-go advancement system.

Wujcik himself said that points just stop mattering entirely once you've had an advancement or two, so Caine does not in fact have Trump Tricks (15); he started with Pattern Imprint and just learned how to use the Trumps more effectively via his player spending game time and effort to develop the ability.

Or Caine has trump tricks (15)

I do experience diffeently as well but that isn aother debate:)

[jibbajibba]

If they never thought of it then they can just have purchased it and never used it to the full extent...that's their loss. I could see partial powers as a way of breaking up in-game expense, but never as a way of custom-building, or cheating expense at character creation. It seems very contrary to the spirit of the powers.

//Panjumanju

Don;t understand what you mean here .

the idea to me ais that Pattern is a huge power huge beyond perhaps even the understanding of Dworkin that drew it because it taps into a fundamental essence of the universe that was there before Dworkin and Shuhy, before The Unicorn and the Serpent.
You can't understand all of it only that which you investigate and to learn the last of Dowrkin's lore you must pay the price.

In have used a partial power model for about 20 years (how old if ADRPG 1991?) really works really really well.

[finarvyn]

My problem is, then people cherry pick what they like out of powers, and don't think of taking things that are contextually very useful but not as instantly gratifying (like Pattern Defence) and are supposed to be part of the larger package of the power. When you start cutting them up into partial powers, it weakens player's understanding of the power because they don't properly deal with it as a whole.

I've often thought about putting together partial patterns sort of like the level system in D&D, where you might acquire powers in a certain order instead of just getting to pick. If you put 25 points into Pattern you might get powers X and Y, at 30 you might add power Z, and so on. All pre-determined. At 50 points you've bought the whole "basic pattern" package.

Gets rid of some customization (e.g. everyone with 30 points in Pattern would be pretty much the same) but gets rid of the cherry picking as well.

[jibbajibba]

I've often thought about putting together partial patterns sort of like the level system in D&D, where you might acquire powers in a certain order instead of just getting to pick. If you put 25 points into Pattern you might get powers X and Y, at 30 you might add power Z, and so on. All pre-determined. At 50 points you've bought the whole "basic pattern" package.

Gets rid of some customization (e.g. everyone with 30 points in Pattern would be pretty much the same) but gets rid of the cherry picking as well.

See I cherry pick but blind.

I say to the PC

How much do you wan tto put in Pattern? What part of Patern do you wan to put that in.

They say .. Okay I want to be able to move through shadow. I give then Pattern Walking for 5 , they say I want to spend 20 more in that , okay NP, Do you want to move faster, move large groups, move sneakily, move closer to Amber etc etc

Each step reveals branches on the tree but the PC can only see the next set of Branches. My Full Pattern tree now is about 200 points but I will always extend a new branch if the players suggest something I think is reasonable that I have never thought of. Like a Shapeshifter spliting themselves into multiple sentient entities, or someone extending the Patterns ability to manipulate probablity onto the entropic scale, or someone who can create unique shadows/universes through drawing trumps of them... I am up for anything

[RPGPundit]

I think Shadow Knight is incredibly useful. Aside from the powers, there's the new NPCs, and also very importantly the GM advice it adds to the earlier stuff in the first book.  

RPGPundit

[Panjumanju]

I actually just got my first paper copy of Shadow Knight on the mail today. And I have to say I cannot believe how big it is. I don't know what all those pages are filled with. Of everything, I find the new character statistics and builds the most useful. I'm not sure what else in here benefits such size. I'm very glad to have a copy, though.

//Panjumanju

[RPGPundit]

I actually just got my first paper copy of Shadow Knight on the mail today. And I have to say I cannot believe how big it is. I don't know what all those pages are filled with. Of everything, I find the new character statistics and builds the most useful. I'm not sure what else in here benefits such size. I'm very glad to have a copy, though.

//Panjumanju

Read the GM advice and all the setting material carefully, its a cornucopia of ideas.

RPGPundit

[finarvyn]

I agree with Pundit on this. Shadow Knight has a lot of really neat ideas and I like the character write-ups.

I never quite figured out how to use Demon stuff in the game, and tend not to do much with constructs, but love Broken Pattern and other stuff like that.

It's the same number of pages as the core rulebook, by the way.

[RPGPundit]

I've used both demons and constructs, in some campaigns.  Of course, I think there isn't a square inch in either book that I haven't used.

RPGPundit

[jibbajibba]

I've used both demons and constructs, in some campaigns.  Of course, I think there isn't a square inch in either book that I haven't used.

RPGPundit

I use it all but I reject the Demon ranking options and rank demons on the characters scale.

Actually i just have a single scale for everyone.

[Panjumanju]

I use it all but I reject the Demon ranking options and rank demons on the characters scale.

Actually i just have a single scale for everyone.

I do this also. I wonder how common that is.

//Panjumanju

[RPGPundit]

I've done it both ways; I can understand where Erick was going with it, but I also don't think its absolutely necessary.

RPGPundit

[ultralogan]

In the books, when they get Brand back, Corwin talks about how they all know what to do, seeming to imply PHD levels of med training. When it comes to useful skills for one who can travel in shadow the question would be did they ever think it might be useful? and how long would it take to learn? If even a few years a shadow walker could go to a place with the right time differential and learn anything and be back in Amber for dinner.