Shadow Knight price

[RTrimmer]

So what has it been selling for recently? Today on Amazon:
 new from $6.99   used from $4.47

RT

[finarvyn]

So what has it been selling for recently? Today on Amazon: new from $6.99   used from $4.47

Those prices seem a little low, but SK typically seems to sell pretty cheap overall even though the main rulebook is usually pretty expensive.

I suspect it comes down to a couple of factors:
1) No one wants a supplement if they don't have the original
2) Folks in general aren't as big a fan of the Merlin series as the Corwin series
3) Not many people play ADRP any more.

[RTrimmer]

I wonder: would a print-on-demand reprint of ADRPG be viable for Diceless By Design?

[Panjumanju]

I wonder: would a print-on-demand reprint of ADRPG be viable for Diceless By Design?

A million times yes, if my play group is any indication.
I'm consistently bringing Amber DRPG to run at conventions and among players who have not played anything but Dungeons & Dragons, and blowing their minds. They ask, "Where can I get this amazing game?"

I point them to the pdf on drivethrurpg and otherwise say good luck finding a copy second had through all those usual online sources.

A print on demand service would solve a lot of problems at my gaming table.

//Panjumanju

[finarvyn]

I wonder: would a print-on-demand reprint of ADRPG be viable for Diceless By Design?

I suppose it would come down to the cost to buy the thing. The ADRP rulebook is actually pretty hefty (256 pages) and Shadow Knight is the same. I'm guessing that books that thick would be pretty expensive, and then there is shipping.

And I wonder how many folks would buy it. I know I have two copies (one I keep safe and the other a "reading" copy for when I play) plus the PDF, so I'm not likely to rush out and buy another. Not many folks seem to be playing Amber Diceless any more, and I'm not sure if it's the subject or the system or the fact that they can't find copies of the game...

I suspect that the best way to sell ADRP again would be to reorganize and blend the information from both books into one game system. Then break it up into smaller books (Player book, GM book, setting/adventures book). Something to make it "new" instead of just a reprint.

Just my guess, though.

[Panjumanju]

I suspect that the best way to sell ADRP again would be to reorganize and blend the information from both books into one game system. Then break it up into smaller books (Player book, GM book, setting/adventures book). Something to make it "new" instead of just a reprint.

I sincerely believe the format of the game would be best served by what you suggest. I'm glad the core book is as long as it is only because that's really all she wrote. Otherwise, I would love to see it trimmed down to a more practical size, it's player sections and GM sections separated, the Shadow Knight stuff added, and maybe even the text from the unfinished expansion book about Shadows.

As pipe-dreams go, it's a pretty nice one.

//Panjumanju

[daniel_ream]

Not many folks seem to be playing Amber Diceless any more, and I'm not sure if it's the subject or the system or the fact that they can't find copies of the game...

A lot of interlocking factors, I expect.  In the early 90's, Zelazny was still finishing up the Merlin Chronicles, and there was still a lot of overlap between fantasy literature and TTRPG.

Now, the source material is actually easier to find thanks to Amazon and recent reprints, but it's not on anyone's radar; plus, fantasy fandom is focusing more on TV/film media and less on old fashioned books.

I suspect that the best way to sell ADRP again would be to reorganize and blend the information from both books into one game system. Then break it up into smaller books (Player book, GM book, setting/adventures book). Something to make it "new" instead of just a reprint.

I found Shadow Knight largely useless.  All it seemed to contain was a bunch of point-buy systems that were incompatible with and generally inferior to the basic systems in the core book.  Some of the "How to use the stuff in the Merlin Chronicles in your Amber games"  was interesting, but it very much had the feel of being padded to get it up to a certain size.

I don't think splitting the books is necessary; I think you could keep the book the same length by replacing a lot of the OMG THIZ IZ AWESUM with some clear, concise examples of how to use the actual rules in actual play (for instance, the book lacks any example of how to adjudicate a direct physical conflict between two PCs).

[jibbajibba]

I think the rules are too monolithic.

I used partial powers almost from the get go just trying to replicate Caine to my tastes, and I added a skill system as so much of what Corwin can do or can't do is about his knowledge and not his powers at all, and it covers the gaps in the rules about how to break a cypher or pick a lock and all that jazz.
A new Amber would need to have a partial powers optional section at least I think .

Its a great game some of the mechanics are fantastic I love diceless and the auction but it does need more play examples.

[finarvyn]

I found Shadow Knight largely useless.  All it seemed to contain was a bunch of point-buy systems that were incompatible with and generally inferior to the basic systems in the core book.  Some of the "How to use the stuff in the Merlin Chronicles in your Amber games"  was interesting, but it very much had the feel of being padded to get it up to a certain size.

Well, I kind of like Broken Pattern because it's in the books and does give some interesting options for cheaper than the main powers in the core rulebook. I agree that they aren't as cool, but they do help fill in some gaps between "Earthling normal" and "Amber" level characters.

Also, there are additional NPC characters statted out that I think add to the depth of the setting. Basically, if you like the Merlin series you want parts of SK and it you don't like the Merlin series you won't find much use in it. I like the Merlin series.

I don't think splitting the books is necessary; I think you could keep the book the same length by replacing a lot of the OMG THIZ IZ AWESUM with some clear, concise examples of how to use the actual rules in actual play (for instance, the book lacks any example of how to adjudicate a direct physical conflict between two PCs).

The thing for me is that I'd hate to lose any SK material, even if it's not as good as some of the other material in the other book. I was thinking of how to preserve Erick's work as much as possible, yet making it more useful and accessible to fans. You certainly wouldn't want one single volume with all of that stuff in it, so it makes sense to either keep the two books seperate or to merge and re-divide it up again.

I'd prefer to merge and re-divide so that the GM stuff would be in a different book than the player stuff, but that's just one guy's opinion.

[finarvyn]

A new Amber would need to have a partial powers optional section at least I think.

I suppose it comes down to whether you're looking at a reorganization or a full new edition.

To me, a reorganization wouldn't add or delete any material but would put like things together. For example, no big advantage in having two different "terms and concepts" lists -- why not put them both into a single list?

If a true "2E Amber" ever comes out, I would hope that it adds in optional rules for partial powers. Maybe some simple skill rules, or at least general suggestions of what skills one might select.

[Panjumanju]

I think a skill system misses the point of Amber Diceless.
If you want a skill system, there are many better RPGs out there for that.

I believe the best iteration of the rules is the original iteration, and any tampering I've heard has in my mind missed the point.

Shadow Knight is not a tremendously good supplement book, perhaps, and it's certainly worth more than $6, but I'm just glad to have any expansion of the core rule book for a system that died far too young.

//Panjumanju

[finarvyn]

A can't disagree with anything you said!

I think a skill system misses the point of Amber Diceless. If you want a skill system, there are many better RPGs out there for that.

One thing I like to do is have each player make a list of things he's good at. I do a pyramid, with one thing at the top and two in the middle and three at the bottom. This way they don't have an unlimited list of things they can do and have to prioritize a little. They can even leave some slots blank and fill them in during the adventure if they suddenly need a skill.

I guess this would qualify as a "skill system" and certainly I wouldn't want to go more complex than this.

I believe the best iteration of the rules is the original iteration, and any tampering I've heard has in my mind missed the point.

The game is designed for tinkering. New powers, new uses for old powers. I assume you mean tampering with the fundamental rules, and I agree that this shouldn't change.

Shadow Knight is not a tremendously good supplement book, perhaps, and it's certainly worth more than $6, but I'm just glad to have any expansion of the core rule book for a system that died far too young.

Amen. I would have loved to see Jason's REBMA book. Or the ones that Erick mentioned like ENGINES OF BRIGHT or CHAOS RULES or anything else.

I had a chance to talk to Erick about this in 2001 at a game convention and he genuinely wanted to get these books ready but never seemed to have the motivation to get it done. He spent too much time creating new things and not enough time taking old ones and making them ready for publication.

Frankly, I suspect that most of us would have accepted a lesser quality book in order to get access to more of his ideas. The guy was amazing.

[jibbajibba]

I think a skill system misses the point of Amber Diceless.
If you want a skill system, there are many better RPGs out there for that.

I believe the best iteration of the rules is the original iteration, and any tampering I've heard has in my mind missed the point.

Shadow Knight is not a tremendously good supplement book, perhaps, and it's certainly worth more than $6, but I'm just glad to have any expansion of the core rule book for a system that died far too young.

//Panjumanju

I respectfully disagree.
If I add a skill system it will be as good as any in another RPG though right ? Mind has opened ended points you cna spend on any skill you like skill use compares your score a 'target' done. It really lets me test PCs against each other without ether showing their hand.

Partial Powers are necesary if you want to replicate the books. Caine has some trump tricks but can't draw trump, you can pretend he can if you like and say well we don't know he can't maybe he is really a trump master but its probably not true.
I like that characters demonstrate unusual skills. I use a partial Powers tree so if someone is really keen on just using pattern to move through shadow they can pick up lots of advanced pattern or extended pattern skills by branching down 1 tree a long way. They migh neve use a pattern lens, they might never use the pattern for sorcery etc . I had a player who wanted a charater a bit like Julian the forest guy but he pushed his tracking right down to being able to find a trail of a shadow walker through shadow, worked well very in keeping with the spirit of the rules and the flavour of the books.

Powers int eh books are not monolithic they are quirky. its like there is this huge mass of stuff pattern can do but each character has a slightly different take on it and a slightly differnt set of skills.

[Panjumanju]

The game is designed for tinkering. New powers, new uses for old powers. I assume you mean tampering with the fundamental rules, and I agree that this shouldn't change.

Yes, that's all I meant.

I respectfully disagree. If I add a skill system it will be as good as any in another RPG though right ?

I don't understand...do you mean Amber is not as good as any other RPG?

Partial Powers are necesary if you want to replicate the books. Caine has some trump tricks but can't draw trump, you can pretend he can if you like and say well we don't know he can't maybe he is really a trump master but its probably not true.

I am of two minds on partial powers. After character creation, the cost of some powers is so overwhelming that I can see why someone would rule on partial powers. My problem is, then people cherry pick what they like out of powers, and don't think of taking things that are contextually very useful but not as instantly gratifying (like Pattern Defence) and are supposed to be part of the larger package of the power. When you start cutting them up into partial powers, it weakens player's understanding of the power because they don't properly deal with it as a whole.

I've never been able to come up with an acceptable alternative, however, like a gradual points payment plan for powers.

//Panjumanju

[jibbajibba]

Yes, that's all I meant.



I don't understand...do you mean Amber is not as good as any other RPG?



I am of two minds on partial powers. After character creation, the cost of some powers is so overwhelming that I can see why someone would rule on partial powers. My problem is, then people cherry pick what they like out of powers, and don't think of taking things that are contextually very useful but not as instantly gratifying (like Pattern Defence) and are supposed to be part of the larger package of the power. When you start cutting them up into partial powers, it weakens player's understanding of the power because they don't properly deal with it as a whole.

I've never been able to come up with an acceptable alternative, however, like a gradual points payment plan for powers.

//Panjumanju

no i mean if I add a skill system to Amber it will be a great skill system.

I like pcs to not have all the powers though I like the guys to only have a part of the picture because that is just like the books. You say are supposed to be part of the package but 'supposed' is a bit daft. If a PC has experience and has tried out stuff they can use pattern defense but if they never thought ot if ..... that is what partial pattern gives you.