Reality

[jibbajibba]

Well, in the first place, I think most amberites are supposed to be sort-of dicks.

But beyond that, the difference is that if you have Reality, someone can't just blink and completely change you, whereas that's exactly what can happen with a shadow-being.

RPGPundit

I don't think it works that way. I recall nothing in the novels whereby any Amberite or Chaosite changes a being they meet. I see them move to other shadows where variant versions of that being exist but I don't think you can change people.
I do think that the rules as written would allow you to mould shadow stuff to possibly modify people but this is a ADRGP effect and not backed up in the books. It it were so easy Merlin would have had a lot less trouble on shadow earth and Corwin et all woudl have dealt with Random's shadow trail a lot easier, hell Random would have turned them into mice or pixies before they ever got to Earth.

[Rel Fexive]

Of course, I could play devils advocate here and argue that one could simply define 'Reality' to be a measure of substance gained from one or more of the aforementioned powers.

In the end I think this is simply a matter of perspective.

I agree.  To me, being 'real' is just a measure of how much Shadow-changing power you have, it's just a label rather than a true "law of physics" if you like.  Someone with the right heritage/potential or who has been initiated/gifted/imbued with one of the Powers is, apparently, by definition immune to its transformative effects (Shapeshifting aside, the application of which has nothing to with how 'real' you are).

Of course, its still dependant on how you see your place in the universe.

[Croaker]

I don't think it works that way. I recall nothing in the novels whereby any Amberite or Chaosite changes a being they meet. I see them move to other shadows where variant versions of that being exist but I don't think you can change people.
I do think that the rules as written would allow you to mould shadow stuff to possibly modify people but this is a ADRGP effect and not backed up in the books. It it were so easy Merlin would have had a lot less trouble on shadow earth and Corwin et all woudl have dealt with Random's shadow trail a lot easier, hell Random would have turned them into mice or pixies before they ever got to Earth.

Very good point.

Has anyone ever attempted this? To play an Amber campain where people (and maybe everyhing, in fact) is immutable and you can just change shadows?

[RPGPundit]

Sure they can ... 'shapeshifting: shape shift other'. Of course not everybody has that level of shapeshifting (and the necessary psyche advantage), but then again, not everybody has the power to manipulate shadow either.

I don't think shapeshifting counts for the purpose of this conversation. With Advanced Shapeshifting, you aren't changing the person's reality, you're changing their physical form. Its a different method.

RPGPundit

[RPGPundit]

I don't think it works that way. I recall nothing in the novels whereby any Amberite or Chaosite changes a being they meet. I see them move to other shadows where variant versions of that being exist but I don't think you can change people.
I do think that the rules as written would allow you to mould shadow stuff to possibly modify people but this is a ADRGP effect and not backed up in the books.

Given that this forum is based on the RPG, and not just the novels, I don't think that's a pretty relevant point. I mean you can argue that if you like, but generally when we're talking about these sorts of things here, we're talking about the game, not the novels.

RPGPundit

[jibbajibba]

Given that this forum is based on the RPG, and not just the novels, I don't think that's a pretty relevant point. I mean you can argue that if you like, but generally when we're talking about these sorts of things here, we're talking about the game, not the novels.

RPGPundit

Okay in my Amber game you couldn't do this

[maxcreigs]

Reality means real or in normal form so you can not be able to change real thing  totally like can not change real cloths,hair color,body  part,etc....but if you  can  able to change   in shadow shad so it will not react  as hard as when the other will change.

[warp9]

Both as a player and in the role of a character I've never liked the 'reality' argument that much, especially when you capitalise it and say that one person is more Real than another.  Anyone who can kill you, or sire or bear your children, is as real as anyone else.

To me, 'Real' just means 'Power'.  Either you have the power to affect Shadow or you don't; but Shadow armies can still conquer Amber and Shadow rock slides can still kill you.  

I like the 'reality' argument; it gives an explanation for why it is possible to mold Shadow like the Amberites do. It's like the explanation behind the things Neo can do in the Martix. The 'Real' just means 'Power' argument moves away from that vision of the universe.

But I don't think "reality" needs to be taken as an all-or-nothing type deal. I'd say that characters can part shadow stuff, but still have an element of reality behind their fundamental nature, that's why Corwin could survive by eating "unreal" food on Shadow Earth for 400 years.

[RPGPundit]

Yes, there's no question that what reality means is not that the shadows are all just illusions, but that those who are real have a highlander-esque "blood of kings" going on. But I think that beyond that there has to be some other concrete differences than mere power level.  Because I mean otherwise, we all know that Benedict is more powerful than Martin; does that make him more "Real" than Martin?

Likewise, there are some pretty powerful dudes out there, who simply could not walk the Pattern.  So its a matter of blood, and the blood brings privilege.


RPGPundit

[warp9]

I don't think it works that way. I recall nothing in the novels whereby any Amberite or Chaosite changes a being they meet. I see them move to other shadows where variant versions of that being exist but I don't think you can change people.
I do think that the rules as written would allow you to mould shadow stuff to possibly modify people but this is a ADRGP effect and not backed up in the books.

The above comment brings an example from the books to my mind.

This example is something that comes up in the initial trek from Shadow Earth to Amber, taken by Corwin and Random, in Nine Princes in Amber.

During their drive toward Amber, they don't just travel between parallel universes. Their car changes as they go, and even Corwin's clothes change. That example seems to bring out a difference between shadow as "various parallel universes," and shadow as "somewhat unreal."

Given this situation, it seems to me that a shadow person along for the ride could have probably been changed too.


Random notes the same effect again, in Sign of the Unicorn (during his story about the attempt to rescue Brand). After he failed the rescue attempt, and is on the run, his clothes shift at least twice.

I don't remember this effect so much with Corwin's shadow shifting. Corwin does mention some transformation of the trucks, as he is transporting his troops toward Amber (in Guns of Avalon). But generally Corwin's own stuff doesn't shift that much as he is going along (although, perhaps I'm just forgetting some important examples where that happened).

[jibbajibba]

The above comment brings an example from the books to my mind.

This example is something that comes up in the initial trek from Shadow Earth to Amber, taken by Corwin and Random, in Nine Princes in Amber.

During their drive toward Amber, they don't just travel between parallel universes. Their car changes as they go, and even Corwin's clothes change. That example seems to bring out a difference between shadow as "various parallel universes," and shadow as "somewhat unreal."

Given this situation, it seems to me that a shadow person along for the ride could have probably been changed too.


Random notes the same effect again, in Sign of the Unicorn (during his story about the attempt to rescue Brand). After he failed the rescue attempt, and is on the run, his clothes shift at least twice.

I don't remember this effect so much with Corwin's shadow shifting. Corwin does mention some transformation of the trucks, as he is transporting his troops toward Amber (in Guns of Avalon). But generally Corwin's own stuff doesn't shift that much as he is going along (although, perhaps I'm just forgetting some important examples where that happened).

If I recall Random shifts the clothes and money and the car to fit the shadow (maybe that involves some technical changed to how stuff works as well) but I can't recall any instances of him shifting a person. No one does it in any of the books and there are certainly instances of 'shadow' creatures posing a real and actual threat to the protagonists such that modding them in some way would have been the obvious solution.

[warp9]

If I recall Random shifts the clothes and money and the car to fit the shadow (maybe that involves some technical changed to how stuff works as well) but I can't recall any instances of him shifting a person. No one does it in any of the books and there are certainly instances of 'shadow' creatures posing a real and actual threat to the protagonists such that modding them in some way would have been the obvious solution.

I don't deny any of your points above.

All I can say is the following: my understanding of the argument as to "why" Random can shift clothes and money is that they are made of shadow, and shadow can be played with by Amberites. By that logic, shadow people should be able to be altered as well.

But again, I agree that there are not any specific examples of altering people in the books.

[Damion Strife]

I don't deny any of your points above.

All I can say is the following: my understanding of the argument as to "why" Random can shift clothes and money is that they are made of shadow, and shadow can be played with by Amberites. By that logic, shadow people should be able to be altered as well.

But again, I agree that there are not any specific examples of altering people in the books.

The answer to this question may be as simple as it takes more skill/concentration/power to alter conscious shadow creatures.  Neither Random nor Corwin were skilled or well practiced users of the Pattern.

[jibbajibba]

The answer to this question may be as simple as it takes more skill/concentration/power to alter conscious shadow creatures.  Neither Random nor Corwin were skilled or well practiced users of the Pattern.

Not really very likely though or Brand might well have tinkered with a few folks and would make Random's choice of Bill Roth as the new Royal lawyer seem a bit dubious.

Welcome to the RPGsite. You will find this secton to be the gentlest.

[warp9]

The answer to this question may be as simple as it takes more skill/concentration/power to alter conscious shadow creatures.  Neither Random nor Corwin were skilled or well practiced users of the Pattern.

That is an interesting suggestion.

Although, I could still argue that unreal is unreal is unreal is unreal.

If something is made of the stuff of dreams, it doesn't really matter if it appears to be a person or appears to be an object. It is still only the stuff of shadow.

Strangely enough, I can even bring in an element of personal experience to this discussion. :cool: I've noticed that during lucid dreams, "dream people" aren't actually any harder to manipulate than other dream objects.

Dream objects can be manipulated because they aren't real, and dream people aren't any more real than other dream objects.