Trying to wrap my head around Amber

[Daztur]

I love Zelazny's writing and I've read the Corwin series twice (never got into the Merlin one) and a lot of the elements of the RPG seem like fun. What I was thinking of for a basic campaign idea is to start things off just before Corwin starts to get his memory back (none of the people I'd be playing with have read the Amber books so I'd reuse a lot of the Corwin series plotline) with the PCs as all children of Julian who's been breeding the PCs off on an obscure Shadow somewhere as an ace in the hole for the upcoming succession squabble. I think having Julian as a father would mesh well with normal psychotic PC behavior . Of course, all does not go as planned for poor Julian, someone else stumbles upon the PCs...

Seems like a good start, but after that I get stuck.

If I GM like I do other RPGs, knowing my players, how they'll respond is:

A. Figure out which Amberite pisses them off the most.
B. Gang up on said Amberite.
C. Either flee into Shadow if they lose or try to frame another Amberite if they win.
D. Repeat.

Which doesn't seem like it's much in keeping with how an Amber story should work. I'd really like to cultivate lots of back-stabbing and politicing among the PCs with the red heads trying to manipulate them and all that good stuff.

But how specifically do you go about running something like that? Won't the party split up and little bits of it would be all over the place each doing their own thing? How do you run something like that without each PC having metagame knowledge of the plotting that the other PCs are doing against them (since, I assume, they're sitting right next to each other)?

Basically, I've never run an RPG in which conflict between the players is a big part of the POINT of the game. How do you do it? What I REALLY REALLY want to avoid is plots that go like this "Elder Amberite strong-arms the PCs into doing X, then the PCs all go off and do X."

[Croaker]

Hum... I'd say, don't make them all children of julian.

Say 2-3 could be, with one being the favorite and beloved child, given hounds, armor... a really spoiled child, while the other will be despised and ignored. Make him become jealous of his brother. And should he gain something? Have julian take it and give it to the favorite child.

You could also have PCs as children of other amberites, be it corwin, brand... What if your brand sees his child as his only confident and partner, upon which he'll confer great power at the cost of something dear to other players?

Show them a powerfull artefact, like a spikard, that only one of them can use at a time ^^

You see the idea. Give them in game reasons to compete, instead of having them with similar goals and background right from the start

[Daztur]

Oooooh, I think I can get them to compete but then what? How do you GM a campaign where the PCs are at each other's throats half of the time? I imagine that a bunch of squabbling PCs wouldn't stay in the same area but would end up scattering to the four wings in a bunch of wierd shadows. Should I just skip between different locations? How do I manage NPCs trying to turn a PC against another PC when the player of the second PC is sitting right there and hearing everything? Send him out of the room?

I've never GMed a campaign with as much competition as seems to be the default in Amber. I can see how it'd work for something like play by post, but I'm having trouble figuring out how to do it tabletop. Now obviously a lot of people are managing it just fine, so I must be missing something...

[Ivanhoe]

I discovered that some players don't like competitive play at all and sometimes take it personally. Be sure to explain to your players before hand that some back-stabbing can occur !

I play Amber on IRC channels so having private conversations is easy but I used to play other games in a competitive form. You will need to have a way to have private conversations with players, but if you want to keep things going smoothly a few tricks can help :
* Discuss privately your players goals and plans privately before the game
* Have an habit of telling private information through small papers passed to the GM and the players
* Have missions where players can appear to cooperate while pursuing slightly different goals. For instance, if your players get a mission to capture a Lord of Chaos on Shadow Earth, they could cooperate, but one player could wants to kill the Lord, another could want to steal a specific object from him, another could needs to be credited for that while another could need the help from the Lord to contact another Chaosian Lord.

[Nihilistic Mind]

Here is some of what we see in the Corwin series that translates from the elder Amberites into your potential PC party dynamic:

-Amberites keep tabs on each other. (One thing I do at the game table is that OOC info is as good as IC info; this forces players to be more secretive, which in turn makes them more paranoid; you don't have to play like that all the time, but it gets the ball rolling in the first couple of sessions).

-Each Amberite has a reason to like/dislike his siblings (ask your players to create a history among themselves, which ones are more likely allies, etc; and remember, just because Corwin knew he could count on Random at times, doesn't mean they weren't paranoid and distrusting each other all the time...)

-They squabble and betray and are crazy paranoid motherfuckers (this is tough if your players are more into working together and don't want to play along; still you can mess with them by demonstrating some of the elder Amberite dynamics in game, which you should if they aren't familiar with the novels).

-They work together (mostly) when saving Brand is a possibility (saving the life of a sibling is not a noble thing or anything -unless you're Gerard- but it gives you an advantage over your saved brother or sister... They are more likely to be trusting in the future, or trustworthy, if they can hope to count on you again.)

-Hurting and maiming is OK, killing is bad (Eric leaves Corwin for dead, burns out his eyes, etc... Never does he outright kill him when he has the chance. Yet they hate each other. So. Much... If one of the PCs kills another, nobody will want to hang out with him, many will hunt him down.)

-When things go from bad to worse, the elder Amberites let by-gones be by-gones and work together (Corwin letting go of his hatred toward Eric to surmount the threat of the Black Road; in 'The Courts of Chaos', all of the Amberites fight the same enemy... and win. When things are out of control in your party and they are too much at each other's throats, deal them a new card: threaten the world balance, give them a common enemy which at first could appear like a localized nuisance, like the Black Road denizens were. PanShadow threats always worry Amberites... At least they should.)

Hope this helps. Let me know if you need me to elaborate on anything.

[Daztur]

Thanks!

Hmmm good ideas about making people not like each other but giving them reasons to work together, but don't Amberites often split up and go off an do their own thing for long stretches of time? Shadow is so goddam big, it seems hard to keep individual PCs from buggering off and holing up in some Shadow that's separate from the rest of the party.

Is it a good idea to provide pressures that keep the PCs all in the same general place? If not, how do I real with the PCs scattering...

[Nihilistic Mind]

Thanks!

Hmmm good ideas about making people not like each other but giving them reasons to work together, but don't Amberites often split up and go off an do their own thing for long stretches of time? Shadow is so goddam big, it seems hard to keep individual PCs from buggering off and holing up in some Shadow that's separate from the rest of the party.

Is it a good idea to provide pressures that keep the PCs all in the same general place? If not, how do I real with the PCs scattering...

You can skip forward in time, which is what I do between big plot lines or when they get the itch to do things on their own. This gives the players a chance to split up and focus on something that is theirs and theirs alone.

In the novels, we follow Corwin's stay in Avalon (or Lorraine) and he skips the parts that are not part of the tale he tells, like his recovery and how his strength returns to him, etc. He tells the tale of great proportions that deals with the threat of Chaos. Anything that does not entirely correlate, he skims over. So, basically, all the big threats and major events will be a more intricate part of the story.

You can try to emulate that in your games when PCs are doing things on their own. If you want to keep them working together, find a reason for them to.

In my last campaign story arc, both PCs had close ties with Oberon, and they worked together (very reluctantly) because of him.

On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with splitting them up and let them work on their own or against each other.
Just make sure you choose one or the other and make it clear to the players what you expect to see in the game... Cooperation or more room for individualism.

[Daztur]

Hmmm, OK I think I'm getting it. It's like a hot air balloon, you've got to balance pressure coming from the inside (infighting) with pressure coming from the outside (the big dangers and challenges that the party has to deal with) juuuuust right so that you don't get everyone being all friendly and you don't get a complete rupture.

Seems like Amber is one of the games like 1st Ed AD&D that doesn't work unless it's GMed in a certain way. I hope I can do it justice...

[RPGPundit]

Two key factors are to:
1. Have different elders treat the different PCs differently.  Gerard will try to be nice to all of them, but will probably have a particular favorite. Caine will try to take the smartest of them and "save" him from Julian by making him one of Caine's own pawns instead of Julians'.  Fiona or Flora might want to either separate Julian from his female children, or use them as instruments to harm Julian with.

2. Julian also must treat his children differently. He has a clear favorite. He punishes one more harshly than others, gives one authority that he doesn't to others, etc.

Also, let people see there are serious consequences to their actions.  They can't just gang up and kill one Amberite, because the spiderweb of alliances and connections is such that if they do try to kill an amberite, then all that amberite's allies (or even those who just found that amberite useful) will be out for revenge.

Also, it would seem likely to me that even Julian would bring up a rule similar to the one his dad had, namely that none of his kids are allowed to kill any of their brothers or sisters.  This will keep your PCs from just being able to off each other.  If they want to do so, they'll have to be very careful not to be caught, anyways.

RPGPundit

[RPGPundit]

Two key factors are to:
1. Have different elders treat the different PCs differently.  Gerard will try to be nice to all of them, but will probably have a particular favorite. Caine will try to take the smartest of them and "save" him from Julian by making him one of Caine's own pawns instead of Julians'.  Fiona or Flora might want to either separate Julian from his female children, or use them as instruments to harm Julian with.

2. Julian also must treat his children differently. He has a clear favorite. He punishes one more harshly than others, gives one authority that he doesn't to others, etc.

Also, let people see there are serious consequences to their actions.  They can't just gang up and kill one Amberite, because the spiderweb of alliances and connections is such that if they do try to kill an amberite, then all that amberite's allies (or even those who just found that amberite useful) will be out for revenge.

Also, it would seem likely to me that even Julian would bring up a rule similar to the one his dad had, namely that none of his kids are allowed to kill any of their brothers or sisters.  This will keep your PCs from just being able to off each other.  If they want to do so, they'll have to be very careful not to be caught, anyways.

RPGPundit

[finarvyn]

To me, the most important thing is to realize that ADRP is not like most other RPGs. In a typical RPG, if you get stuck you can just toss in a band of orcs or a squad of guardsmen and you can plan ahead while the party beats up on some weaklings.

Not so in ADRP.

In ADRP, the plot is the important thing and nothing happens at random. Erick gives examples about Roger's writing, how certain encounters are just done and move on, while other encounters take a long time to tell. The ADRP mechanic is such that the GM has a decent idea of who will win (modified by how the players react, of course) and so every encounter is more story-driven than time-wasting. No opportunity to plan ahead while the players waste time.

I think that this was my major stumbling block when I first started to GM.

So, you need to have a general plotline developed in advance, but be ready to adjust and adapt as the players interact with your story. Stay on your toes and be ready with some possible variants on your plot that you can pull out at a moment's notice. The more you plan ahead, the more you'll enjoy ADRP.

[Croaker]

Also, let people see there are serious consequences to their actions.

This is pretty basic, yet one of the keys of most good gamemastering IMO.

[Daztur]

Thanks for the feedback all.

OK vague outline for a first adventure:

Story begins at the same time as the original Amber series begins. The PCs are all children of Julian who have been bred, brought up and trained (as Julian's ace in the hole) on a backwater Shadow fairly close to the Courts of Chaos. This Shadow will be a bit Gygaxian with plenty of monsters and whatnot that the PCs have been trained to hunt.

Most of the people I'd be playing with haven't read the Amber books so they and the PCs wouldn't know too much about Amber and whatnot besides a few vague hints, none have walked the Pattern. However, each has some kind of secret that the rest don't know about. I want some to have one has some Chaos ancestry and Shapeshifting, one favorite kid has a Trump of Julian, maybe one with some natural ability to do some very limited shadow walking (maybe like the Broken Pattern thingie), one is actually not Julian's child but the child of another male Elder Amberite who doesn't know of the PC's existance and who Julian kidnapped as a baby and raised as his own, etc.

Then the adventure would work like this:
1. PCs are doing one of a long series of "tests" given to them by Julian. This will be a fairly D&D-style mini-adventure but with a competitive twist. Maybe something like whoever gets the princess out of the dragon mountain in a certain amount of time wins or something along those lines. Not much serious competition for the PCs (except each other) but mostly an introduction to competitive play and the mechanics.

2. Either during or just after the "test" a Chaosite shows up who is the mother of one of the PCs. She's found a pathway through Shadow from the Courts to the PCs' Shadow but it's temporary and tenuous. She wants to get the PCs into Chaos to get her kid back from Julian and to turn over the rest to more Elder Chaosites as valuable captives in return for brownie points. Will try to use trickery to convince the PCs to go with her along the Shadow path into Chaos. If that doesn't work she'll have other tricks up her sleeve to try to get at least one of the PCs on the Shadow Path to Chaos.

3. During this time Julian is busy dealing with Corwin crashing through Arden so he won't be of much help except maybe to shout orders if contacted via Trump.

4. PCs journey through Shadow towards Chaos and wierd shit happens. The Chaosite tries to manipulate the PCs while this is happening. If the Chaosite fails to get the PCs to go on her Shadow Path they have to deal with more of her tricks in their home Shadow.

5. Julian is either contacted, trumped in or figures out something strange is up and comes after the PCs to drag them off home and/or to put a stop to the Chaosite's shenanigans once Corwin is out of Arden.

6. If the PCs end up being dragged back to their home shadow by Julian they realize that there's probably LOTS that he hasn't told him and, being PCs, they start getting suspicious. If the PCs get lead all the way into Chaos they are spotted by some allies of Brand and some fun results. If the PCs are left stranded in some strange Shadow, they're left alone to deal with that until someone finds them or they can figure out how to get out of it.

Does that sound like something along the right lines?

[jibbajibba]

Your plot ideas look very good. I was going to suggest that you started the PCs with very little knowledge of Amber or their heritage but you have seen the benefit of this yourself.
I would do to other things to engender the feeling of competition. Run an auction (there are in my opinion limits with the standard auction format but an auction of any type sets up great competition). I would introduce some 'positions' within Julians shadow. The captain of the guard, steward protector that sort of stuff. Then allow the PCs to bid for these positions. This gets acorss the idea that they are competing for scarse positions/rewards and engenders competition and gives you hooks. The positions will become less important once the falacy of the importance of their kingdom is realised, it is just a shadow after all. Lastly I would allow players to set their own objectives. These are private targets the players can strive towards that give them xp points. They must involve conflict (so you can't have learn to play the violin, but you can have "learn the identity of my mother") and the GM sets an xp point value to them from 1 to 3. Invariably some of the players will set objectives in oposition to other players, seizing a position the other holds or embarassing them in public or something.
The best plan to keep them together in a group is to use the same trip different mission idea and have them all head out together but with differtn objectives. This is actually easier if there is limited amber knowledge and maybe a limited path through shadow they can use. Encourage use of notes and secrecy. If one player looks like they are about to split off get an NPC to give them a mission to kep tabs on one of the others usually works.