Pscyhe Battles!

[RPGPundit]

Hmm, now that's very interesting perspective Kevin.

RPGPundit

[Kevin]

I'd say it's just going back to the rules. Of course there's nothing stopping someone from changing any particular situation to better suit their campaign, and it is the exceptions we remember the most. But there's also no reason to reengineer the wheel if you don't have to.

[RPGPundit]

Let me say this, though. If Erick was really intending for a Construct, which he described as having "Unlimited psyche", being "virtually indestructible in psyche", and "being a real threat to its creator" to nevertheless be beatable by someone with a high-rank psyche, he REALLY wrote that section of shadow knight very poorly.

RPGPundit

[Croaker]

Well, problem is, on the one hand, he says this, unlimited psyche and all, and, on the other hand, he says that fiona could beat such a construct in psychic battle... I guess it's one of those "your mileage may vary" things.

[RPGPundit]

The problem is that this either suggests that Psyche must be divided into two attributes (power and skill, or something like that), or that the construct would effectively not HAVE a Psy rank, it would simply have the "infinity" symbol there as a quality of its raw power, and whether or not someone could protect themselves from it would depend on their actual techniques and what powers they had access to, etc.

Just like it stands to reason that if a guy ranked 1 in Strength should be able to overpower anyone else in his ladder with raw force of strength; so should the higher ranked psyche person be able to overwhelm anyone else with raw force of psychic power. That tells me that a construct would have to either be "higher" ranked than Fiona, or not really valid within the ranks ladder at all, but NOT "lower" ranked.

RPGPundit

[darciesdaddy]

If you want a parrallel with warfare, think of a construct as a person with a really big gun but not much skill. Any person with an RPG has more raw power than Benedict, but that doesn't mean that Benedict won't kill him with a spoon.

[RPGPundit]

If you want a parrallel with warfare, think of a construct as a person with a really big gun but not much skill. Any person with an RPG has more raw power than Benedict, but that doesn't mean that Benedict won't kill him with a spoon.

Hmm, good comparison.  Touche.

RPGPundit

[Spike]

So... the solution is for Fiona to beat the Construct with superior Warfare, using Psyche as the battlefield.

Yes?

[Croaker]

IMO, no.

Psyche is "psychic warfare" and "psychic strength".
Moreso, allowing warfare to be used as such in psychic battles would be very dangerous IMO, since it'd allow high-ranked warfare users to defeat any Psyche user. After all, if fiona can defeat infinite psyche, why can't you beat a slightly higher psyche? Warfare would become even more potent.

To me, the solution would be, like I said before, to treat a construct as having the psychic equivalent of the Damage quality: Able to tear easily through your mental defenses (where his brute force is pited against your psychic walls), and to do great damage with a little advantage. That is, if he can "hit" you. And that's where psyche matters.

[Spike]

I'm not the expert of the system but as I understand it part of the entire point of the system was to force conflicts to occur where you had the advantage. A high warfare guy can beat a high strength guy only if he can convince the GM that what he's doing relies more on warfare than strength and vice versa.  Why should psyche be treated differently?

[Croaker]

Well, using warfare in a psyche battle? Simple, actually. Just fire a gun at the guy. If he's out of reach of your warfare, then you've made an error somewhere along the way. But warfare should remain physical.

A suitable comparison would be engaging in a grapple with someone of higher strength. If you allow your PC to use warfare to slip out of it, then, to what use is strength if you can't even win on your own territory? Warfare come before this (or when you slip a knife though your opponent's ribs)

Of course, I've seen systems out there that blend this, mixing the four attributes in sub-attributes, like:
Psychic Strength = Psyche + Strength/2
Psychic Finesse = Psyche + Warfare/2
Hand weapons = Warfare + Strength/2
Ranged weapons = Warfare + Psyche/2

You could do something like this, but this breaks down the initial Amber simplicity

[RPGPundit]

That's pointless, croaker.

I think I agree with darciesdaddy, and based on what Kevin said here it seems that this was Erick's viewpoint too, only he didn't find the right terminology for it in the book, that "construct psyche" is NOT the attribute "Psyche". It is a kind of weapon you do psyche warfare with, the same way you use the powers.

So with Warfare, you would fight with swords, knives, nuclear weapons, guns, etc. And a guy armed with a Sword can beat a guy armed with nuclear weapon, if he has better Warfare.

In Psyche you fight with Pattern, Logrus, Trumps, Sorcery, Conjuring, and Constructs.  And someone armed with a Construct can be beaten by someone with some other power, if they have superior Psyche.

In actual play, though, this will depend that the person with better Psyche not be an idiot.  Just like you could be 1st ranked in warfare but if you stand still and say "hit me" to the guy with Chaos-rank Warfare, you're still going to get stabbed and there isn't some magical "1st in warfare force field" that's going to save you; likewise in Psyche if you say "well I'll just go head to head with brute Psyche against that Construct", you're going to lose even if you're 1st ranked Psyche.

RPGPundit

[darciesdaddy]

That's my interpretation, as well.

The man aims his RPG at Benedict, launching a deadly explosive at the Amberite.

Benedict nimbly leaps behind a nearby rock, leaving the grenade to explode harmlessly where he was standing as he hurls a spoon into his opponent's eye.

The construct sends a massive wave of (fill in the blank) energy at Fiona's mind.

Fiona nimbly diverts the wave to wash around her psyche, as she subtley begins to make changes to the construct's shadow, cutting if off from it's energy source.

[Kevin]

In actual play, though, this will depend that the person with better Psyche not be an idiot.  Just like you could be 1st ranked in warfare but if you stand still and say "hit me" to the guy with Chaos-rank Warfare, you're still going to get stabbed and there isn't some magical "1st in warfare force field" that's going to save you; likewise in Psyche if you say "well I'll just go head to head with brute Psyche against that Construct", you're going to lose even if you're 1st ranked Psyche.

This exact circumstance occurred in our game, when some new players were introduced. (Naturally the first thing we did was fight.) A character with a highly ranked strength, a deadly damage sword, and a human warfare, ended up in a fight with a 3rd ranked warfare and a resistant shield. The strength character, knowing he couldn't compete in a warfare arena, came screaming in, swinging down in a two-handed overhead chop with his sword like he was cutting firewood. The warfare character simply raised his shield over his head. The sword chopped the shield in half, lopped off the arm behind it, went through the shoulder and stopped somewhere around the guy's stomach. The strength character then pushed the warfare guy's body off the blade with his foot, pointed the sword at the guy's three other buddies, (any one of whom could have picked him apart like an overdone chicken) and ordered them to drop their weapons. They all instantly complied.

I always thought that was a funny story, and it does make the point that Fiona would have to be careful… which the warfare guy in the example certainly was not… though that care is likely one of the components that makes up her psyche score. (Remember that elder family pretty much doesn't make mistakes.) In other words, if you were building backwards from character creation, you would say that psychic power + experience + imagination + shrewdness = psyche score. (Plus any other related sub-factors you want to throw in.) All the other little bits are fun tools for the GM, and would make great "surprises" in a combat, but if the higher rank is at least reasonably on top of things, and plays semi-defensively, they are not going to be game-changers.

[Croaker]

That's pointless, croaker.

I think I agree with darciesdaddy, and based on what Kevin said here it seems that this was Erick's viewpoint too, only he didn't find the right terminology for it in the book, that "construct psyche" is NOT the attribute "Psyche". It is a kind of weapon you do psyche warfare with, the same way you use the powers.

Did I say something different? I had this whole "constructs psyche as Damage Quality" thing all along
What I disagreed with was using Warfare instead of Psyche when engaged in a psychic battle