Pscyhe Battles!

[charis]

Okay, so how does everyone handle Psyche battles in their games? For instance, it talks about Constructs in the Shadow Knight book as having potentially more psyche than Fiona, but that Fiona has a lot of little tricks up her sleeves, and psychic ninjitsu. So let's say this is the case, and a player character who happens to have a high psyche, comes up against a Construct with an amazingly bigger psyche. The two start a mental battle. Now, since the Construct has an overpowering psyche level, none of the normal combat techniques are going to work against it as shown in the Amber book. How would the player character go about winning?

My theory would be something along the lines of starting sideways attacks, like trying to push emotions onto the Construct that it isn't used too in order to distract, quickly implant a false memory into it minds and such things like that. What do you guys think and how would you handle it?

[RPGPundit]

I guess the question is kind of like how would someone armed with a knife beat someone armed with a flamethrower.

RPGPundit

[Nihilistic Mind]

That is a decent comparison, Pundit. How would one describe the Psyche Battle in a game though.

I find it easier to describe a guy with a knife fighting another guy with a flamethrower than describing how someone with an inferior Psyche Rank can outmaneuver someone with a much more powerful Psyche.

I find this interesting since much of the Psychic battling described in the RPG is not well-supported by the novels.

I'm also interested in this because the next session of our Amber Game is occurring entirely in Llewella's mind...

[charis]

I find it easier to describe a guy with a knife fighting another guy with a flamethrower than describing how someone with an inferior Psyche Rank can outmaneuver someone with a much more powerful Psyche.

I find this interesting since much of the Psychic battling described in the RPG is not well-supported by the novels.

My thoughts exactly! Obviously, a more experienced mind should have some ability to outmaneouver a more powerful mind, at least, that's what the Construct section of the book tells us. Except, that kind of thing can't translate over the same way in Warfare, since a high Warfare does indeed mean you can beat the other person, maybe you haven't done as many battles, but you should be able to figure out how to beat him anyway, since the Warfare is higher. Unless of course, you cheat or something like that, since it's not exactly 'The Olympic Games' as Corwin says. But, with psyche, it's all a mental battle, so how could you play dirty mentally?

[boulet]

I have very ambiguous feelings toward Psyche confrontations in Amber. On one hand they happen in the canon. Not as a often as say good Ol' battles and wizardry showdowns, but it's there, mostly because of trumps. And it's important : some princes aren't impressive fighters but they're still contenders and they need to have something threatening about them.

On the other hand there's nothing visual in psychic fights, and it could make for weak scenes if players aren't creative when describing their intentions/actions. Sure you could translate : "I take a very offensive stance and try to thrust my saber in any breach of his defense, attempting to overwhelm him" by "I'm using my Background as sales representative to flood him with biased rhetoric and sophism, alternating between pushing emotional buttons and flattering his self-righteous sentiment". But I'm afraid if it lingers a bit too much on the abstract side of RP. Plus I have an issue : I hate situations where players loose control of their character, and psychic conflicts may cause that. If I have a very relaxed experienced player who can see "teh r0xx0r" in having his/her character fucked around, memory tampered with and suggestions injected somewhere around the cortex, fine. But my usual fellow gamers are usually very territorial about their character's mind and will be aggravated if they feel they loose control.

I'm actually looking forward to reading the creative solutions you guys may have found while playing Psychic conflicts.

[Nihilistic Mind]

I'll reread the thing on construct psyche soon to see if it sparks something new.

My players avoid Psyche Battles like the plague because of its dangers (even though most of them focus on Psyche), but they dominate the minds of mortals left and right...

[JongWK]

If I have a very relaxed experienced player who can see "teh r0xx0r" in having his/her character fucked around, memory tampered with and suggestions injected somewhere around the cortex, fine.

That'd be me in the first Amber campaign I played. Fun times!

I can see your point, though. Most players are allergic to these situations.

[RPGPundit]

My thoughts exactly! Obviously, a more experienced mind should have some ability to outmaneouver a more powerful mind, at least, that's what the Construct section of the book tells us. Except, that kind of thing can't translate over the same way in Warfare, since a high Warfare does indeed mean you can beat the other person, maybe you haven't done as many battles, but you should be able to figure out how to beat him anyway, since the Warfare is higher. Unless of course, you cheat or something like that, since it's not exactly 'The Olympic Games' as Corwin says. But, with psyche, it's all a mental battle, so how could you play dirty mentally?

Um, the key is that the Psyche from a construct is "artificial" psyche, its not a psyche rank based on experience.

It would in fact be exactly the same with Warfare. Let's say someone somehow had an item or magic or whatever that increased their warfare artificially; not because the character has gotten better with age, but due to mere power-rush.  So even if they went against Benedict, it doesn't mean that they'd beat him; not if Benedict was smart, and made sure to avoid a direct assault in favour of using "strategery" (ie. cheating!).

RPGPundit

[charis]

So even if they went against Benedict, it doesn't mean that they'd beat him; not if Benedict was smart, and made sure to avoid a direct assault in favour of using "strategery" (ie. cheating!).

RPGPundit

Yeah, that's what I'm saying, I'm just wondering how you use strategy in a psychic combat, since the book only has the few things to do during combat, but there must be other ways to battle psychicly, since Fiona should be able to defeat a construct with unlimited psyche to throw at her (saying it has a mind, anyway).

[RPGPundit]

Well, that's the thing. I DON'T think Fiona should be able to beat a construct if its frontal assault vs. frontal assault.  The point is, Fiona would not be stupid enough to try such a thing. She'd use pattern on it, or High Compelling, or trick the thing into thinking it had beaten her, or whatever.

High Compelling especially; its the power that's basically for when you're done using psyche as a club like a stupid child.

RPGPundit

[Kevin]

Well, this all kind of assumes that psyche rank is about power rather than effectiveness. I would contend that Fiona would have a higher rank than the construct in question, even if it had more "power" simply because she is more effective. Working backwards, the guy who has the higher rank wins the combat, and the rest is window dressing. If Fiona can be reliably expected to win, the she should have the higher rank, and the power vs. skill question is simply cosmetic.

[Nihilistic Mind]

Well, this all kind of assumes that psyche rank is about power rather than effectiveness. I would contend that Fiona would have a higher rank than the construct in question, even if it had more "power" simply because she is more effective. Working backwards, the guy who has the higher rank wins the combat, and the rest is window dressing. If Fiona can be reliably expected to win, the she should have the higher rank, and the power vs. skill question is simply cosmetic.

I agree.
I think part of that dilemma stems from the comparison Wujcik makes on page 25 of Shadow Knight. He uses the word Psyche without necessarily speaking of a superior Attribute, I think. After all, if the construct cannot possibly beat Fiona, it would have a lower Psyche stat, if you go by the rules... Simple enough. Or they could be somewhat matched though their domination tactics would be very different and each would be able to 'keep the other at bay'.

[Kevin]

Two of the characters in one of Erick's first games collaborated on a "pattern engine," which was designed to be a portable source of psyche power. Try as I might I cannot recall whether or not the creation had an actual psyche score... though I do remember Erick telling us that anything we created that had an a psyche attribute would gain sentience eventually. This was back when all the rules for the game were 14 pages printed from his word processor. It was still more than playable however, and the book stayed very close to what we had then.

[Croaker]

Good one, kevin!

I'd say a superior psychic power can cause problems and surprise the opponent first, just like, at swordplay, you might be surprised by the force of your opponent's blows, making parry difficult at best.

A skilled opponent might still be able to win, though, if he can compensate and evade brute force confrontations.

So, "mechanically speaking", I'd give the character with a source of additionnal psychic power an advantage in psychic battle, just like if he had a sword with increased damage. This means that he might need to achieve little success to damage his opponent's mind. This would force the opponent to be very, very carefull with what he does.

[Kevin]

Right… so if Fiona made an unwise first move in psychic combat (trying to pit raw power vs raw power) against the unskilled but more powerful construct, she could quickly get herself into bad trouble. Playing smart and keeping defenses in place, as with any case where dealing with even a slightly inferior rank, should in most cases keep her in good stead.