Powers auctioned as attributes

[Thanuir]

I'll be starting a new Amber campaign in a couple of months and intend to modify the rules as follows. Has anyone done anything similar, and do you think this would work? What effects and drawbacks will it have?

The basic idea is that Trump and Pattern will be auctioned much as the attributes are. They can reduced to chaos and human levels (though the chaos level does not correspond to the abilities of chaosites) if one does not participate in the auction, and the amber level is a good and safe default. Pattern functions as follows:

• Human level: Can't walk the pattern.
• Chaos level: Has not yet walked the pattern, or has walked a significantly broken one.
• Amber level: Has walked the Pattern. Can travel through shadow and alter probabilities.
• Lowest rank: Can use the power in one exotic way, e.g. Pattern defense, move armies fast, leave no trace when traversing shadow.
• Second lowest rank: Two such specialties.
• ...
• Highest rank: As many specialties as indicated above, plus one extra, or maybe double the number indicated above. I'm not quite certain yet.

And Trump as follows, so very similar:

• Human level: Can never use Trumps.
• Chaos level: Does not start with a Trump deck. (It will be difficult to get a new Trump deck; otherwise, this has to be changed to some other drawback.) Can use Trumps as usual.
• Amber level: Has a standard Trump deck and can use it to contact others as usual.
• Lowest rank: Can use the power in one exotic way, e.g. can draw or sketch Trumps, identify incoming calls, or track Trumps of oneself.
• Second lowest rank: Two such specialties.
• ...
• Highest rank: As many specialties as indicated above, plus one extra, or maybe double the number indicated above. I'm not quite certain yet.

There will also be an auction for special stuff - it will include shadows, items of power, maybe allies, minor powers (such as magic or power words) and the highest rank will allow one to take Logrus or other major exotic power (exotic, as in not Trump or Pattern).

[RPGPundit]

I did something similar, though only with Pattern, in one of my many Amber campaigns; it had mixed results.  Some people felt it that their purchase ultimately wasn't worth it (that's not necessarily a bad thing, since sometimes the same can happen in the attribute auction, "buyer's remorse" doesn't invalidate the concept), and others felt it made it too difficult to be able to progress with something so important.

RPGPundit

[Panjumanju]

My problem with the idea is that it makes very public a character's powers, something that should ideally not be broadcast to all other players...especially trump.

Also, this is very pattern bias. The way you've geared it, just about everyone is going to have some level of understanding in pattern, and the ones who do not are going to stick out like a sore thumb.

If this is the dynamic you want to capture - one where pattern and trump are the important powers and everyone pretty much knows where everyone stands with them, then I guess this should work.

I'm not sure it will give you a balanced division of the powers through various ranks, either.

Personally, I would just keep the powers to buy as points leftover from the auction.

//Panjumanju

[Thanuir]

I did something similar, though only with Pattern, in one of my many Amber campaigns; it had mixed results.  Some people felt it that their purchase ultimately wasn't worth it (that's not necessarily a bad thing, since sometimes the same can happen in the attribute auction, "buyer's remorse" doesn't invalidate the concept), and others felt it made it too difficult to be able to progress with something so important.

RPGPundit

Did people invest a lot in the Pattern, or why was progress seen as too difficult?

My problem with the idea is that it makes very public a character's powers, something that should ideally not be broadcast to all other players...especially trump.

This makes public that a given character has lots of flexibility with a given Power. Note that you have no way of telling if someone can draw trumps, spy through them, use them as traps, or maybe something else, and the precise details are totally and utterly unknowable. Also, secretly buying things up will be possible in some way, though the details I have not established yet.

So, you'd know that Fiona can do all sorts of tricks with Trumps. What tricks? Maybe she has told you she can draw new trumps. Can you trust her and what else can she do?

Also, this is very pattern bias. The way you've geared it, just about everyone is going to have some level of understanding in pattern, and the ones who do not are going to stick out like a sore thumb.

Yep. The players have played zero, half or one short campaign of Amber (depending on the player), so it is easier for (almost) everyone to have the same basic means of exploring Shadow and contacting each other. It's still fairly or totally new thing to them, after all.

If this is the dynamic you want to capture - one where pattern and trump are the important powers and everyone pretty much knows where everyone stands with them, then I guess this should work.

I assume there will be zero to two players who try to start without Pattern (their mistake) and one to three to start with no Trump cards. For both there will be someone who is fairly good at them, since if others are not putting in something, you can get it for cheap, and likely someone will take that opportunity.

I'm not sure it will give you a balanced division of the powers through various ranks, either.

What do you mean by this?

Personally, I would just keep the powers to buy as points leftover from the auction.

//Panjumanju

Thank you for your feedback. I appreciate and do consider it, even if I also argue for my idea.

[Lorrraine]

This will seriously change the point economy of character creation. In a standard game having the ability to walk shadow, manipulate probability, and draw trumps costs 90 pts. In your game everyone gets some basic Pattern skills for free unless they buy Pattern down and anyone who bids even a single point in the Trump auction can choose to have the ability to draw Trumps.

It seems likely that every single PC or nearly every PC will have at least decent competence at Pattern and Trump with plenty of points left over for absolutely anything else they might want.

Giving all or most of the PCs Pattern definitely matches the source material, but making Trump and exceptional Pattern abilities extremely common does not. If you can push the auctions hard enough you might make some of the more extreme abilities reasonably rare, but that is quite a gamble.

Still, if you want a game of Pattern and Trump Superheroes then go for it. Just don't be surprised when your PCs start doing extreme things with the massive amounts of power you handed them during character creation.

[Panjumanju]

Still, if you want a game of Pattern and Trump Superheroes then go for it. Just don't be surprised when your PCs start doing extreme things with the massive amounts of power you handed them during character creation.

This.

Cutting up Pattern into partial powers according to rank will make it very, very cheap. The point cost is half of what you get for a very good reason - but if you throw it into auction like that, you only have a sense of competition among players driving the price up. If everyone agrees to be civil then 1st rank could be all pattern powers for 20 points.

Pattern wasn't written up to be chopped up in this way, so invariably you're going to skew the importance of its different aspects. "Pattern defense" is not, on the surface reading of it, as practical and useful as "Pattern walking" - dividing them up, or worse still having people pick them - they're only going to make the choices that 'look good', a rehashing the power was not designed for.

Are you intending to go through the auction process for every power? Or, just Pattern and Trump? What happens to all the other powers? Does this mean someone could be a secret shape shifter? This seems a little wonky.

//Panjumanju

[Thanuir]

This will seriously change the point economy of character creation. In a standard game having the ability to walk shadow, manipulate probability, and draw trumps costs 90 pts. In your game everyone gets some basic Pattern skills for free unless they buy Pattern down and anyone who bids even a single point in the Trump auction can choose to have the ability to draw Trumps.

It seems likely that every single PC or nearly every PC will have at least decent competence at Pattern and Trump with plenty of points left over for absolutely anything else they might want.

Yes. The full benefits of Trump artistry, though, would require 5 or 4 specific partial powers, and at least 3 of them are obviously useful. Most advanced uses of Trump require one first to be able to draw them. So I am not too worried about people getting too much power via Trumps.

Pattern might be more of a problem. I might tone it down a bit. If I only allow people to seek for concrete visualisation, or concrete sense impressions, by default, then they would have to pay separately for seeking abstract stuff (shadows of desire, whoever is behind this mess, even specific Real people or objects).

Having many points left is not really a problem, since they can only use them in auctions, and others have the same benefit. Though I do need some more guidelines on character advancement and leftover Stuff.

Pattern wasn't written up to be chopped up in this way, so invariably you're going to skew the importance of its different aspects. "Pattern defense" is not, on the surface reading of it, as practical and useful as "Pattern walking" - dividing them up, or worse still having people pick them - they're only going to make the choices that 'look good', a rehashing the power was not designed for.

What adverse effects you think this would have? People can take some advanced Pattern powers without, say, Pattern defense, and so there would be too many powerful Pattern-users running around.

Are you intending to go through the auction process for every power? Or, just Pattern and Trump? What happens to all the other powers? Does this mean someone could be a secret shape shifter? This seems a little wonky.

4 attributes are auctioned (not the standard 4, but four anyway), then Pattern and Trump, and there the Special auction.

If you win the Special auction, you get to have some major exotic power. Shapeshifting, Logrus, or we can design a new one, no problem. Logrus and shapeshifting should be seen more as examples than anything else. Also, there might or might not be Courts of chaos, and supposing they do exist, they might or might not use Logrus and shapeshifting as their core powers.

Otherwise, ranks in Special can buy you other stuff: A reasonable artifact (this will be custom made with no reference to the artifact generation rules in the book), a personal Shadow, minor power (e.g. a bunch of power words; an alternate shape or two; ability to construct temporary say steampunk gadgets in whichever shadow; certain cybernetic enchancements that function in whichever shadow), maybe allies. More powerful minor powers (e.g. sorcery, conjuration) or more complicated artifacts probably will require several "slots".
I probably won't allow more than 2 open-ended powers per character, or maybe only 1 per character.

[Panjumanju]

4 attributes are auctioned (not the standard 4, but four anyway), then Pattern and Trump, and there the Special auction.

If you win the Special auction, you get to have some major exotic power. Shapeshifting, Logrus, or we can design a new one, no problem. Logrus and shapeshifting should be seen more as examples than anything else. Also, there might or might not be Courts of chaos, and supposing they do exist, they might or might not use Logrus and shapeshifting as their core powers.

Otherwise, ranks in Special can buy you other stuff: A reasonable artifact (this will be custom made with no reference to the artifact generation rules in the book), a personal Shadow, minor power (e.g. a bunch of power words; an alternate shape or two; ability to construct temporary say steampunk gadgets in whichever shadow; certain cybernetic enchancements that function in whichever shadow), maybe allies. More powerful minor powers (e.g. sorcery, conjuration) or more complicated artifacts probably will require several "slots".
I probably won't allow more than 2 open-ended powers per character, or maybe only 1 per character.

This is not a criticism - but this is not the Amber Diceless Role-playing game. This is a different role-playing game, based in Roger Zelazny's Amber universe, which happens to have character creation by auction and diceless conflict resolution.

That's not a bad thing, but I suspect you're going to create a few unforeseen holes in the system.

//Panjumanju

[Thanuir]

This is not a criticism - but this is not the Amber Diceless Role-playing game. This is a different role-playing game, based in Roger Zelazny's Amber universe, which happens to have character creation by auction and diceless conflict resolution.

Yeah, and I'm fine with that. We played ADRPG by the book and now we want to take it to a specific direction, keeping what we liked the most and playing around with the other stuff.

[Panjumanju]

Yeah, and I'm fine with that. We played ADRPG by the book and now we want to take it to a specific direction, keeping what we liked the most and playing around with the other stuff.

That's cool, but...why keep the Amber setting? I mean, it's a great setting but I feel it is really best served by Erick Wujcik's rules. If you're going to change the statistics and the method of acquisition of powers, you're steering the system towards a very different place, which may be better served by an original setting. Just an idea.

//Panjumanju

[Sydius Mendoza]

That's cool, but...why keep the Amber setting? I mean, it's a great setting but I feel it is really best served by Erick Wujcik's rules. If you're going to change the statistics and the method of acquisition of powers, you're steering the system towards a very different place, which may be better served by an original setting. Just an idea.

//Panjumanju

I don't see how that is helpful. Why keep the setting? For same reason many people find Amber Diceless. Because it is based on Zelazny's Amber. I'm sure there are also people that find ADRPG because they are RPG fans in general and the idea of a diceless system is intriguing. The aspect of ADRPG that brings you to the system can play a huge factor in how you view the core rules.

Speaking only for myself, it is the A in ADRPG that draws me in. I am working up a first time campaign for first time players all of whom are big fans of the series. I'm planning a short 1-3 session Throne War to "test drive" the system as it were. Core rules no adjustments. This trial run will help me determine how things will need to be tweaked for the longer running game that I have in mind, where I have every intention of invoking "the golden rule" to craft the game that my friends and I want to play. That's what it's made for.

That being said, I can see how this rules tweak might make for more convoluted game play. I like the idea of auctioning more than just attributes, but making the powers ranked kind of "breaks" the idea of playing an Amberite.

I don't recall which thread it was in but I saw someone here post about having a 5th auction after attributes are done. I want to say the winner of the auction got advanced pattern imprint, but the rest of the bidders got their points back. Others are still able to buy advanced pattern at full price.

[Panjumanju]

I don't see how that is helpful. Why keep the setting? For same reason many people find Amber Diceless.

You didn't actually read my post.

If you're running the Amber DRPG as it is intended, then you are certainly playing Amber in Zelazny's universe - or as close as a representation as we will ever get in a roleplaying game, given how Erick Wujcik consulted with the author when crafting it. And of course you would want to keep the setting. But that's not what the OP is doing.

Just reading the core book there are a million options you can tweak and more auctions you can have than just the basic statistics - you are still operating in the core rules. They're very generous. Of course you don't want to abandon the setting.

What the OP is doing is:
* Having 4 new statistics, shifting the focus of play.
* Auctions for two of the powers, prioritising two of them.
* Having a Special auction for a custom or secret power.

These are adjustments well outside the rule-set and I do not believe he is playing the Amber DRPG any more, just a diceless RPG with an auction character generation system.

Erick Wujcik's Amber DRPG represents Roger Zelazny's Amber best. If you're changing the system such that is is no longer the Amber DRPG, then what are you really trying to get with the roleplaying experience? Wouldn't there be a clearer focus to the setting if you had a custom setting with the custom rules, if you are already not representing Amber best?

It was just a curiosity, Sydius Mendoza.

//Panjumanju

[Thanuir]

That's cool, but...why keep the Amber setting? I mean, it's a great setting but I feel it is really best served by Erick Wujcik's rules. If you're going to change the statistics and the method of acquisition of powers, you're steering the system towards a very different place, which may be better served by an original setting. Just an idea.

We will talk about setting and create characters during the first session. If players want Zelazny's Amber, or if nobody has strong opinions, we'll go with Zelazny's Amber. But we might end up playing somewhere else, too.

Furthermore, no matter what we end up playing, there is always the possibility that the players find out that they are the new generation in Corwin's pattern or some other new pattern, so I can always tie it back to the Amber setting.

So this is still open, and will be until we start playing.


Also, if I only want to stick with the books where Corwin is the protagonist and want to emphasise characters who are of the blood of Oberon, then restricting the powers to Pattern and Trump and making everything else special is fairly consistent with the books, IIRC. (It has been a while so I might very well be in error, here.)

[Panjumanju]

We will talk about setting and create characters during the first session. If players want Zelazny's Amber, or if nobody has strong opinions, we'll go with Zelazny's Amber. But we might end up playing somewhere else, too.

Furthermore, no matter what we end up playing, there is always the possibility that the players find out that they are the new generation in Corwin's pattern or some other new pattern, so I can always tie it back to the Amber setting.

That sounds like a great idea.

Also, if I only want to stick with the books where Corwin is the protagonist and want to emphasise characters who are of the blood of Oberon, then restricting the powers to Pattern and Trump and making everything else special is fairly consistent with the books, IIRC. (It has been a while so I might very well be in error, here.)

Trump Artistry, as it appears in the game, is mostly a product of the Merlin Series. It was mentioned in the Corwin series - but only by virtue of the fact that Dworkin drew them, and he must have done that somehow, and when he freed Corwin from prison.

But lots of people feel the same way you do, that they want to focus on the Corwin books - which are mostly about Pattern.

While I really do like the Merlin cycle, I feel that Merlin did less with 3 powers than Corwin did with one, and that lack of focus really frustrates me.

//Panjumanju

[RPGPundit]

Did people invest a lot in the Pattern, or why was progress seen as too difficult?

Pretty much, at least how I remember it; the character who spent the most felt he'd overspent, while the others felt disadvantaged; the former remained unsatisfied longer than the latter, if I recall.

RPGPundit