Playing Amber using Dice...

[Nihilistic Mind]

Hi folks,

Before I get labeled, please consider this a challenge I set for myself, or at least an interesting experiment. I am sharing this for fun so don't get your panties in a twist.

I love the ADRP as it is, but after discussing Houses of the Blooded RPG with a friend, we came to think that Amber could be translated using the HotB's system with minor modifications.

Today, I started writing 'would-be modifications' to the HotB system in order to accommodate the feel of Amber.
This is freshly written and it has not been tested but I thought I'd share and get some feedback.

If I'm successful, maybe the anti-Diceless people that lurk in other parts of the RPGsite will quit bitching about Amber and just play.

I'm going to assume that most people here are familiar with the Amber Diceless Roleplaying and that little is known about Houses of the Blooded. Reading the Houses of the Blooded Preview PDF (free) is pretty essential, since I used those rules. Unfortunately, housesoftheblooded.com doesn't seem to be active. The preview pdf is only 6MB so if someone wants it emailed to an inbox that can handle it, let me know via PM.

I've tried to define concepts new to either rule systems clearly, and simply. Let me know if something is unclear or needs to be reiterated. Again, it's pretty raw and assumes a bit of knowledge on both systems.

Here goes:
~~~~~

Very Basic Rules (read Houses of the Blooded Preview PDF for more detailed rules):

• When faced with a risk, add the Attribute, Aspect, Blessing, Power and/or Sovereign Name that comes into play for the resolution of the action/risk.
• Each level or rank you have in the corresponding Attribute, Aspect, etc, counts as 1 D6 (six-sided die).
• You must roll above 10 to gain 'privilege' (decide if the outcome is a success or a failure).
• During a contested roll, you must roll at least ten and above your opponent(s) roll in order to gain privilege.
• If you roll below 10, the GM has the privilege to determine whether the character succeeds or fails.
• Wagers can be placed: every die set aside is a wager (an additional element to define the success or failure, AND, OR, etc...).
• Wagers are set aside in secret and taken from the pool of dice available for that particular risk.
• If it is a contested roll and you rolled at least a 10 and your opponent rolled higher than you, keep half of your wagers rounding up.
• If you rolled highest, keep all of your wagers.
• If you rolled below 10, lose privilege and all of your wagers.
• If nobody rolled at least 10, the GM has privilege to determine success or failure.
• Style points are gained when characters do something dramatic, something daring or very 'in-character'.
• Style points are spent when activating an Aspect or Blessing.
• Style points are used to add one additional element to a scene or count as one additional wager.

Special Rules (for this 'Amber' game only):

Potential:

• Activating a Power uses 'Potential' equal to the amount of dice gained for the roll.
• 'Potential' is regained thusly: 1 style point restores 3 points of 'Potential'.
• 'Potential' is also regained thusly: After a full day of uninterrupted rest, the character regains points of 'Potential' equal to his Strength.

Places:

• When in Shadow, Amberites roll 1 additional die.
• In Amber, Lords of Chaos roll 1 less die. Amberites roll 1 additional die (Amber is the first Shadow, after all).
• In the Courts of Chaos, Lords of Chaos roll 1 additional die.
• In a character's Home Shadow or Personal Ways in Chaos (bought as a Blessing), the character gains additional dice equal to the level of the Blessing: Home Shadow. Other Amberites still gain +1 die due to the fact it is a Shadow.
• In Primal Planes, Amberites gain nothing, Chaos Lords only lose a die if the Primal Plane has a Pattern. (Primal Planes cannot be bought as Blessings).

People:

• To affect a Shadow person, or a creature or thing from Shadow, it takes 1 success or 1 wager each.
• To affect a Lord of Chaos, or creatures or things of 'Substance', things that are real, it takes 1 success and 1 wager, or 2 wagers each.
• To affect a Royal Amberite, it takes 1 success and 2 wagers, or 3 wagers each.

Character Creation Guidelines:

Players get 30 points to spend between Attributes, Powers, Aspects and Blessings.

• Attributes should have a minimum of 1 and a maximum of 5 (elder Amberites have a max of 6).
• 6 to 20 points are spent on attributes. One attribute should have a rank no higher than 1 (the character's weakness).
• This 18-point array may be used as a standard: 5, 4, 3, 3, 2, 1.
• Characters should have 1 to 4 Aspects. They each cost one point.
• The Powers range from 1-5 or 1-3 depending on which one. Each level costs 1 point. Powers each correspond to one Attribute, except for Strength, which determines 'Potential'.
• 'Potential' is Strength x 2.
• Style point maximum is the sum of all Attributes, divided by 2, rounded up. The character starts out with 3 style points.
• Blessings are Home Shadows, Spy networks, Henchmen, Minions, Creatures, Items and Constructs. The players can spend from 1 to 2 points per Blessing. Some Blessings cost 3 points, but these are reserved for NPCs and the elder Amberites (Corwin's Pattern Sword, Oberon's Home Shadow: Amber).

That's it! Spend your points!


The Attributes remain the 6 original Houses of the Blooded virtues:

Strength: all physical actions (lifting things, running, jumping, unarmed combat, etc); Strength also determines the potential for powers, in the same manner that Endurance did in the ADRP.
   Amber characters with a high Strength: Gerard, Julian.

Cunning: see what others are hiding, keeping your secrets, solve puzzles and mysteries, etc. To see and read people.
   Amber characters with a high Cunning: Oberon, Caine.

Courage: to go on when all seems lost, to push one's limits, physical willpower, determination.
   Amber characters with a high Courage: Corwin, Bleys.

Beauty: creativity, expression, natural charm. Sophistication, culture.
   Amber characters with a high Beauty: Flora, Deirdre, Llewella.

Wisdom: memory, knowledge, understanding, metaphysical understanding.
   Amber characters with a high Wisdom: Fiona, Brand.

Prowess: martial training, using weapons, maneuvering on a battlefield, strategy and tactics.
   Amber characters with a high Prowess: Benedict, Eric.

~~~~~

Powers are next...

[Nihilistic Mind]

The Powers are based on most of the ADRP powers (note the disappearance of the Pattern Lens):

The rules for Powers are simple:

• You can achieve effects corresponding to ranks up to your current level.
• You can roll up to your total rank even for lesser power effects (Hellride using your 4 levels of Pattern, even though Hellriding is only a level 2 effect).
• Every die you roll from using a Power consumes a point of 'Potential'.
• The Attributes associated with the Powers are guidelines. If you find a different use for a Power, apply it at your discretion.

Pattern: uses Wisdom.

• Level 1: Walk through Shadow. Blood of Amber.
• Level 2: Hellride. Royal Way. Leading others through Shadow (safely).
• Level 3: Affect probability. Pattern Defense. Blood Curse.
• Level 4: Alter Shadow reality (Time, Physics, Magic, Tech). Pattern Sense.
• Level 5: Destroy Shadow. Tunnel Travel (Fiona's trick. Could be level 6).

Logrus: uses Prowess.

• Level 1: Logrus Sight. Local Tendril manipulation.
• Level 2: Logrus Tendrils (seek/travel).
• Level 3: Logrus Defense. Logrus Sorcery (add 1 die to sorcery when Logrus is brought to mind).
• Level 4: Manipulate Shadow (Alter Shadow Reality). Bind Chaos Servant.
• Level 5: Summon Primal Chaos.

Trump: uses Beauty.

• Level 1: Trump Sketch.
• Level 2: Draw Trump. Imbue Trump energy. Trump Defense.
• Level 3: Trump Sense. Trump Gate. Trump Memory.

Shapeshift: uses Courage.

• Level 1: Natural Forms (Human, Chaos, Avatar, Animal). Shift physical features.
• Level 2: Close wounds. Reflex Shapeshift. Advanced Shift physical features. Shift mass.
• Level 3: Shift Persona. Shift Aspects (adopt other Aspects as part of the shapeshifting, temporarily replacing current aspects). Advanced Shift mass/organs.

Sorcery: uses Cunning.

• Level 1: Local Shadow magic (limited to local magic potential and physics). Minor Sorcery.
• Level 2: PanShadow magic. Universal Sorcery. Conjure Shadow Form (simple things conjured out of Shadow stuff).
• Level 3: Conjure Aspects (Shadow things imbued with their own Aspects). Conjure Power (Shadow things imbued with a Power), must have 3 levels of Power in question.

Sovereign Names: this is kind of optional since it doesn't feature in the Amber novels, but it's an interesting feature of Houses of the Blooded so I thought it would be neat to add it in.
When a Sorcerer uses his secret name or Sovereign Name to empower his Sorcery, he gains an additional 3 dice (like an Aspect).
If another Sorcerer uses that Sovereign Name against him, that Sorcerer gains 2 dice.

[Shoby187]

I've run several Amber games using systems with Dice. I don't have a problem with the ADRPG, but it's pretty limiting as far as character creation goes IMO.

Currently I'm running an Amber game using GURPS. In fact, I've been having a discussion on the GURPS Forums about how to run Amber in the new 4th edition of GURPS. You can check out the discussion here:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=41670&page=1&pp=10

GURPS Amber seems to work fine. It's just a really high powered game. Amber actually fits in nicely with the new GURPS Infinity setting which is the default setting for GURPS now in 4e. Keep in mind I use fairly watered down versions of the elders compared to most. For GURPS I gave them the following package:

x2 ST
+3 DX
+3 HT
+5 IQ

Regeneration (HT/5 per hour)
Regrowth (Based off of HT)
Unaging
Blood of Amber (Which allows the character to walk the Pattern. It also includes some minor ability to travel in shadow).

Keep in mind that the x2 ST in GURPS is a lot more then it might sound.

I've also used the White Wolf Storyteller system to run Amber in the past, both with and without dice. I honestly think that the Storyteller System probably fits Amber the best. Each of the Elders gets to really have their own areas of expertise using the Storyteller system and it's suited to running powerful Immortals.

When I ran it the Elders often had Attributes above 5, going all the way to 10 in some cases. Benedict has 10 Dexterity; Corwin 10 Stamina; Flora 10 Manipulation; Gerard 10 Strength, etc.

The hard thing about using the Storyteller system is NOT to use the Vampires or Werewolves. They could probably quickly kill most Amberites, even Benedict.

Other then the Attributes the powers are almost identical to what you had listed. I let players buy abilities above 6 with Standard Pattern Imprint from the ADRPG being 5 dots, etc.

[Nihilistic Mind]

That's cool. That makes me wish I were more familiar with GURPS...

I could see using the ST system as a diceless system too, in fact, once a GM is used to diceless gaming, it would be easy to translate stats into degrees of success/failure...

Same for Houses of the Blooded Amber builds... Use the dice pools and compare without rolling or using wagers and diceless still works.


How was the feel of using GURPS and the ST systems with dice?

[Shoby187]

Honestly, the Feel was much closer to the books then when running Amber using the ADRPG IMO. I've actually run both GURPS: Amber and ST: Amber with and without dice. They work either way.

The thing I like when using GURPS as opposed to the ADRPG is that the characters seem much less comic book. Using GURPS each character knew exactly how good their characters were compared to other and THEY KNEW THEIR LIMITS.

GURPS Amberites are definitely superhuman. They can survive wounds that can kill a normal human, they are faster, stronger and a lot smarter then humans. (I actually caught a lot of flak on the GURPS Forums about giving the Amberites +5 IQ but I also saw them as having superhuman intelligence).

Still, in GURPS even if you are the 3rd best Swordsmen around, you take the thug pointing the Uzi at you VERY seriously . . .

[Nihilistic Mind]

Still, in GURPS even if you are the 3rd best Swordsmen around, you take the thug pointing the Uzi at you VERY seriously . . .

I would too even using the ADRPG, but I know what you mean.

The ADRPG is more about having a high enough Warfare that you don't put yourself in those situations without Bad Stuff...

I suspect the playtest of my little mod will be pretty successful as well

I'll keep things updated as things progress or change.

Now, I need to come up with stats and aspects for all of the Amberites for the mod. That's quite a bit more work, especially since I seem to keep getting my facts all wrong (I keep re-reading the books in random chapters rather than with continuity and it doesn't help.)

If anybody wants to post their idea of the amberites using the guidelines described above, please feel free. I'll post my own results for discussion.

[Shoby187]

If this helps I have an old Amber game website where I list the stats for each Amberite and Chaos Lord that I used. If the numbers seem off its because in that game every character (both player and NPC) was built off of 300 points. My idea is that each Amberite has their own strengths and weaknesses. I never like the ADRPG idea where the Elders were so much better off then younger characters.

Anyway, I think it should be easy to to use the attributes I list and convert them into the system you are using. Just click on PBEM then Amber or Chaos and mouseover the Trumps of the characters to see their stats.

I came up with those stats after extensively researching each character in the books. Let me know what you think!

http://www.skyseastone.net/ancient_powers

[Nihilistic Mind]

I took a quick look and I like them but I have a question about Flora.
Why are her stats so high?
Does she have to have 80 in psyche, etc?
How do you figure?

That's the problem I'm having right now, I understand the need for GMs to make the decision to give NPCs the same amount of points for a build, etc.

I also have a tendency to underbuild the NPCs (meaning, to make them as strong as the PCs, much the same way you gave the same amount of points for NPCs and Player Characters). I often try to build them (in the ADRPG) with 125 to 200 points at the most. I also consider Amber Rank, to be the most common rank, with only some members of the family distinguishing themselves from the rest. In that sense, I enjoyed seeing Fiona with Chaos ranks in Strength and Warfare.

I'm just curious if you had the same reluctance giving Flora those stats, as I have now with statting her for my own mod.

[Shoby187]

Well, part of the problem was that I was giving everyone 300 points, so I had to put points into something!

But, I also wanted a Flora that wasn't a pushover as she's usually thought of. Actually, if you think about it Flora always seems to come out ok when there are conflicts going on. Everyone knows in the first series that she hates Random, yet after he is king she is seen living in Amber and working at his side. I think she is a lot trickier then most give her credit for.

Not to mention in one of the short stories she has no problem beating a giant demon with wooden chair.

[Nihilistic Mind]

Well, part of the problem was that I was giving everyone 300 points, so I had to put points into something!

Yeah, that's the challenge

Not to mention in one of the short stories she has no problem beating a giant demon with wooden chair.

Do you recall which short story?

[Rel Fexive]

It might be better just to give them the numbers you feel are right and accept whatever total they come out at as correct.  Without going nuts, obviously.

[Shoby187]

Do you recall which short story?

Of course, LOL.

It was 'Coming to a Cord.'

In 'The Shroudling and the Guisel' Merlin fights and defeats the Guisel and then sends it back to attack the person that sent it after him. This person just happened to be spying on Flora at the time through her mirror and had to jump out of the mirror when it came after him. He takes off leaving Flora and Luke to deal with the creature with a little help from Frakir.

During the fight Flora seems to take care of herself just fine (screaming like a proper lady the entire time). FYI, I'd call the Guisel a lot tougher then the big snake thing that Random fought.

Anyway, in my games, Flora's ditzyness is mostly an act. I just think that Flora is the kind of person who would rather socialize then run a kingdom.

[Nihilistic Mind]

Anyway, in my games, Flora's ditzyness is mostly an act. I just think that Flora is the kind of person who would rather socialize then run a kingdom.

That's interesting, it's kinda how I'm running her right now... resourceful in surprising ways But she'll totally take advantage of characters with a crush.

[Trevelyan]

I've toyed with running Amber using GURPS. One thing that I noticed prety early on is that, while you can create the basic character attributes and skills easily enough, when it comes to modelling the pwoers, GURPS can gett pretty complex. Most significantly, the cost of creating shadow walking, shape shifting and Logrus tendril type powers is astronomical. The upshot is that you can't really balance two characters with even slightly differing pwoers on the basis of total points alone.

As a result, I am inclined to ignore points for the most part and just use the system for resolution, allowing the players to pick appropriate skills and build appropriate powers regardless of cost. The default skill rules of GURPS help in this respect in that a talented PC with no formal training (high attribute, low skill) is stillpretty competant, and the extra skill points don't mean that much in most cases. The flexibility with power creation can also be used to create greater variety of skil with certain key powers, making a tangible difference between a character who has devoted time to developing aspects of a power and one who ahs not.

[Shoby187]

I've toyed with running Amber using GURPS. One thing that I noticed prety early on is that, while you can create the basic character attributes and skills easily enough, when it comes to modelling the pwoers, GURPS can gett pretty complex. Most significantly, the cost of creating shadow walking, shape shifting and Logrus tendril type powers is astronomical. The upshot is that you can't really balance two characters with even slightly differing pwoers on the basis of total points alone.

As a result, I am inclined to ignore points for the most part and just use the system for resolution, allowing the players to pick appropriate skills and build appropriate powers regardless of cost. The default skill rules of GURPS help in this respect in that a talented PC with no formal training (high attribute, low skill) is stillpretty competant, and the extra skill points don't mean that much in most cases. The flexibility with power creation can also be used to create greater variety of skil with certain key powers, making a tangible difference between a character who has devoted time to developing aspects of a power and one who ahs not.

Really, I've found the the easiest way to run Amber using GURPS is to have the players build a normal character with however many points you think works. Then apply and Amberite or Chaos Lord template to the character. For powers, use the exact same costs listed in the ADRPG. Basic Pattern is 50 points, Advanced is 75, etc. I usually run 300 point ADRPG games and when doing GURPS Amber I give the characters 300 points too. It seems to work out pretty well.