Player Character and their children

[Nihilistic Mind]

In my current FTF game, my players have been... breeding. And it reminded me of an instance years ago when a player (I was playing as well not GMing) spent the time to raise an army of his children using the wonderful properties of fast-time shadows etc. Another in a different game created a clone-army of his own, fully roleplaying through the difficulties of raising an army of clones and all that good stuff/nonsense.

At the time, the GM did his best to allow it while making things hard on the PC on a technical side of things.

So here are a few questions I have for you guys:

How would YOU handle those situations and the subject of PC children in general in your campaigns?

How powerful would THOSE amberites be?

Could they all walk the Pattern?

Are these things you pulled on your GM or something a player pulled on you?

How do you handle PC children in general?


As a side-note, in my current campaign, one player has one daughter and is raising the illegitimate child of the other player... The other player has bred to produce an offspring a total of ten times. Any fun suggestions?

[RPGPundit]

Well, just remember that an Amberite child, like any other possession, has a mind of its own.  In my campaigns PCs have often ended up having children, and usually those children have either been ripe for manipulation by other Amberites, or have ended up screwing up or betraying their parent's plans as often as they've helped. Amberites are a notoriously dysfunctional family to begin with, and having "parent issues" seems to be in the blood, all the more so if the kids get a whiff that dear old mom or dad is just using them.

RPGPundit

[Trevelyan]

I've never been a big fan of letting players do excessive things with fast time shadows, and thankfully my players have rarely wanted to use them for more than rapid healing and occasionally studying something relatively quickly.

I wouldn't let a character breed a large family in a whim since all the evidence seems to suggest that Amberites are relatively infertile. Children arise when the plot dictates, not the player, which means I as the GM get to decide if and when any of the PCs have children and I would never put myself in the position described. Family interaction is always significant in Amber, and the family should never expand to the point where a member can be considered nameless cannon fodder.

Generally I've always assumed that the blood of Amber will remain strong for a few generations at least, although it may require a booster shot of Chaos blood every so often ("I trust to the blood of Chaos for strength"). In my games the extended Chaos families are only able to maintain their power through measure inbreeding over the generations, although an infusion from other supernatural entities occasionally helps. The Amber family is only an offshoot of Chaos with a recent Unicorn booster which may have resulted in some changes to the genetic mix (reduced shape shifting potential for a start).

I generally assume that PC level Chaosites come from stronger bloodlines (including the named Houses with ties to the throne) which are on a par with Amber. I limit access to the Logrus to those stronger lines (Merlin suggests that he knows most/all of the Chaos sorcerous types, at least by reputation, which implies that they are not too numerous) with weaker bloodlines relying more on natural shapeshifting. Even among the stronger houses, Logrus is generally reserved for the core family and certain sorcerous savants (for example, Gilva of Hendrake may well not be an initiate).

I would apply the same approach to Amber scions, but the point where the blood would begin to loose the potential for Pattern imprint would be several generations removed and unlikely to come up in play. Merlin is an interesting case here - was the decision to unite the line from Benedict with that from Corwin entirely down to the desire to enhance Merlin's claim to the throne, or had Benedicts bloodline thinned too far by that stage and a Corwin infusion was considered necessary for Merlin to walk the Pattern?

Alternatively, or sometimes in conjunction, I assume that walking the Pattern or the Logrus "resets" the family potential to be an initiate, and as long as one's parent claimed their birthright so can the child. The weaker Chaos families therefore become those where no one has successfully assayed the Logrus for a few generations. This is then a mark of weak blood and personal shame for those related to specific failures.

[Croaker]

Yup, this is what I do.

In short, the potential to walk the pattern disapears after 3 generations, as the "true" blood is too diluted with unreal chaos blood. You're also less and longer lived, with base attributes going only lower.

However, asseying the pattern makes you entirely real, and gives you a new level of existence, making you a "true" amberite, resetting the blood clock, making you immortal and giving you better potential. Amber potential.

As per the children thing, I'd do two things:
- Difficulty of producing offstrings for amberites
- The children have a mind of their own.
I had in fact one player have a child, but we stopped playing before he could get any older.

The clone problem? This is soooo simpler to do! ^^ I had a similar thing, with a player's true love that my co-GM and I decided to be in fact a blood creature tailored for him.
If a player creates some clones, just make the clones dissolve after some time into a kind of flesh creature that want to be reunited with his father self. Your player will have a big surprise when he'll discover hundred and hundred of mad flesh golems hunting him through shadow repeating his name like a mantra.

[Otha]

Some players would respond to that, "You know, if you didn't want me to do that, you could have just said so."  Is there any circumstance in which someone COULD accomplish the goal in that case?

[Croaker]

Why not? I just adressed the case where it posed a problem.
And this isn't saying "it is not possible", but rather "well, it did work, but not quite how you expected it".

Nonetheless, even if a PC has good relations with is children, they are still independant being, who will soon desert him if he uses them as cannon fodder.

On an aside, I find the idea of the clones gone wrong (however wrong) much more interesting than the "Ok, you've got an army of utterly obediant amberite slaves"

[Arref]

In my current FTF game, my players have been... breeding. So here are a few questions I have for you guys:

How would YOU handle those situations and the subject of PC children in general in your campaigns?

How powerful would THOSE amberites be?

Could they all walk the Pattern?

Are these things you pulled on your GM or something a player pulled on you?

How do you handle PC children in general?

As a side-note, in my current campaign, one player has one daughter and is raising the illegitimate child of the other player... The other player has bred to produce an offspring a total of ten times. Any fun suggestions?

Amber's blood is too important to trivialize: this is canon.

IMC, this is why identical amberite twins is nearly impossible; partly why Chaosi assassins specifically trained to shape-impersonate Amber royals go mad if they try; and why the Rinaldo-Luke pattern-ghost event ended in tragedy.

IMC, the entire idea of cloning would make for a plot arc of frustration and foibles, which could be very interesting or extremely pointless depending on the maturity of the Player. You would be 'pushing' the universe "up hill".

It would be good to get the offspring issue on the table for meta discussion if it was something the Player was pushing for. Hopefully, the PC has a line of research or an "in" with a cousin who can help dig up info.

Yes, IMC, PCs have been reproducing. There is even a bit of competition to it.  However, amberites are not extremely fertile for a variety of canon and campaign specific reasons. Hence, PCs do not always know how to have children (that's right, Oberon didn't include the Real information in his talks with his kids.) So having kids is a bit like meeting Dworkin or knowing how to get to the Primal Pattern: it is a plot point you have to do work for.

IMC, the children have the same potentials as the parents. So far, all the children that have tried the Pattern have walked it successfully. However, King Random has been 'testing' children to make sure they are tough enough. If the King says "wait a year", that's not been defied by anyone.

As Player, I've never presented the GM with a 'child plot arc'. As GM, I've seen it many times. It can be a lot of fun. Certainly, PCs see themselves in their kids. Some of the same mistakes are made. And often when "wiser counsel" is offered, the kids (just like their parents) elect to ignore subtle advice.

And for whatever amusement it might bring, I'll link to an essay I did on amber reproduction. Have fun.

[Croaker]

Great! I just love reading your essays

[Trevelyan]

In short, the potential to walk the pattern disapears after 3 generations, as the "true" blood is too diluted with unreal chaos blood. You're also less and longer lived, with base attributes going only lower.

There is no basis whatsoever to suppose that Chaos blood is inherently weaker than that of Amber, or that Chaosites are any less real than Amberites, other than in Wujcik's personal interpretation of the Amber universe. Dworkin even came from Chaos and has no inherent Amber blood, and Oberon even said "I trust to the blood of Chaos for strength".

However, asseying the pattern makes you entirely real, and gives you a new level of existence, making you a "true" amberite, resetting the blood clock, making you immortal and giving you better potential. Amber potential.

Amberites don't appear to be immortal so much as very long lived. Oberon certainly appears older than his children, for example.

[crafty]

Age is in the eye of the beholder.  If I remember correctly, Corwin commented that shadows will lie for them.  That said, I suppose you would see some people (Fi) change around the primal plains.

[Croaker]

There is no basis whatsoever to suppose that Chaos blood is inherently weaker than that of Amber

Ooops!!!
Sorry, typing error, I meant "Shadow Blood", I dunno were that came from.

[Nihilistic Mind]

All great responses, really, and I agree with most of you that Amber blood shouldn't be trivialized and that breeding is a difficult thing.

I think for the most part that we, as GMs, find an easy way to turn the player's idea around on them: that's just how things work in RPGs when the PCs abuse the system in some manner - Let the system work but let them mind the consequences!

Here's a side question for raising amberites: would those children raised in Shadow be less powerful than say those raised in Amber, or the Courts of Chaos? I'm not talking about education (yet) or their lineage, but about the proximity to Real Planes of existence... Substance, if you will.

Would you, the GM, take that into consideration?

Would you even go so far as saying that amberite children raised in fast-time shadows would end up being weaker than those raised in shadows with similar time differential, for game-balance reasons?

I realize all of those questions can be very specific to certain GMs and even to certain campaigns, but I'm just trying to get other ideas than my own on this since I haven't had to deal with PC children very much before and our current FTF game is "lineage heavy" - Some duties in the game are inherited; the PCs are descendants of characters from a previous campaign; the characters have decided to start legacies of their own and from what I can tell plan on using their children pretty much the same way Oberon has. This is all in the early stages so I figured I'd get more opinions on the matter.

And to clarify, the clone army and amberite child army idea has not come up in this campaign. It's just something I remember another player doing a long time ago. The GM basically turned the PC's creations against him... Pretty much what's been mentionned before.

[Croaker]

For me, Amber Blood is Amber blood. Asseying the Pattern strenghten it, the pattern claiming the character as its own, but living elsewhere from amber changes nothing... For real people, as the effects are too subtle for them (like, what's a +1% when you're at 80%?). OTOH, shadow characters brought to Amber will become more real and stronger over time (+1% is significant when you're at 2%)

Fast time shadows change nothing, save the ammount of mundane skill you can have. Attributes and all stay the same, unless confronted to a real challenge.

[Arref]

Here's a side question for raising amberites: would those children raised in Shadow be less powerful than say those raised in Amber, or the Courts of Chaos? I'm not talking about education (yet) or their lineage, but about the proximity to Real Planes of existence... Substance, if you will.

Would you, the GM, take that into consideration?

Would you even go so far as saying that amberite children raised in fast-time shadows would end up being weaker than those raised in shadows with similar time differential, for game-balance reasons?

These are really good questions. Your campaign could change directions based on the answers.

What I try to keep in mind, answering questions like these, is that science isn't as important as metaphysics. That also seems to be part of your presumption in the question.

I think there are two important issues (that earth logic would say are linked but Amber logic might say are not), first is matter/substance and the question of the poles of Reality. The first issue concerns things like fast-time shadows , environ reality support and challenges that might make the young of Amber grow strong.

In this, you can see possible flaws in raising Amberites in shadow. If there are no local challenges, do the kids grow up weak and lazy? If fast-time shadows are inherently unstable, do the kids grow up more subject to Logrus, chaos forces and magic? If shadow energies are quite low compared to Amber, does the air, food, nutrients and support of the home world cripple the blossoming teen years of a growing amberite?

You have to consider the 'flesh' and substance might be weakened by all these factors. You might find that young amberites are not crippled, but instead take much longer to mature properly.

Second is the Blood, and by this I mean only power and substance and Pattern. The Blood of Amber is a mystic thing not subject to weak forces or the flesh. Even near death, the Blood of Amber can spin devastating curses or destroy shadows. Even reproducing with shadow blood does not trivialize Amber Blood.

Just this week, IMC, a Player was probing into the differences between kids raised near Ygg, or near Chaos, or near Amber. Those differences showed up in the flesh, but not in the Blood.

I think that's a good Zelazny-esque answer.

[Nihilistic Mind]

It makes sense, I like it. The blood of Amber has the potential needed to walk the Pattern and the potential for fantastic abilities, but the environment/conditions of the child's growth might have an impact until that potential is unleashed (either with proper challenges, walking the Pattern, etc).

Merlin gets proper education in the Courts of Chaos and ends up with tons of Powers! But also a lot of baggage...

I could even see the potential of Amber Blood being true for Amberites who have already matured. For example, Corwin, after being imprisoned and malnourrished for years, seemed very old and quite weak, even to Shadowlings. But he eventually returns to his former potential, rising that the challenge of the Black Circle presented. Without that challenge, and if he'd been lazy, he might have continued to age and his health could dwindle a bit more... But the potential would always be there...

Oh, and I'll keep you updated with what happens to the offsprings of the PCs soon... I don't want to spoil it in case the players are lurking on here.