When one my PCs who just essayed the Logrus expected it to grant him something, just like Amberites who transverse the pattern get to go anywhere...anywhere-anywhere through magical barriers or what-have-you.
They expect something comparable with the Pattern, but as far as I can tell from the source text, the Logrus just grants you temporary insanity.
So, I said, and it worked very well for the game, that the Logrus could reach out into anywhere-anywhere and bring you something. Rather than you going somewhere, something was coming to you. It worked out very well.
Who has run into this circumstance in their game? What are some other solutions to this problem that people have put forward?
//Panjumanju
There's a sample size of exactly one, but Merlin got Frakir because he forgot he had it on his wrist when he essayed the Logrus. When he came out the other end, Frakir was alive and sentient.
So you could allow your PCs to take something with them and have it come out the other end empowered. In keeping with the theme of the Logrus, I would not allow them to define its abilities (or at least, not let them define all its abilities).
The Logrus should not be predictable. Neither should it be the same as Pattern, in order to keep things interesting.
Quote from: Rel Fexive;490451The Logrus should not be predictable. Neither should it be the same as Pattern, in order to keep things interesting.
I'm more interested in keeping this balanced. Already players complain that Logrus is too expensive (because of Shapeshifting) and not as powerful (whatever "poweful" means) as the Pattern.
Would you have the Logrus do some random thing each time it is essayed? That's a not a bad idea, just...unpredictable? I suppose that's in keeping with theme.
//Panjumanju
Quote from: Panjumanju;490512I'm more interested in keeping this balanced.
That's probably going to be a fool's errand. ADRPG isn't balanced, at all, and trying to make it so is fighting one of the core conceits of the game.
If an item becomes sentient it becomes more of an ally than an item. Nothing says that the item has to continue to support or befriend the person who brought it onto the Pattern or Logrus.
Sentient pizza...
?
Quote from: Panjumanju;490512I'm more interested in keeping this balanced. Already players complain that Logrus is too expensive (because of Shapeshifting) and not as powerful (whatever "poweful" means) as the Pattern.
Would you have the Logrus do some random thing each time it is essayed? That's a not a bad idea, just...unpredictable? I suppose that's in keeping with theme.
//Panjumanju
To be honest, I don't see the Logrus as something you would ever want to assay more than once, so whatever it does do once you complete it should be balanced against the terrible risk of even going anywhere near it. It's not as cute and cuddly as the Pattern.
Could be remembering this incorrectly, I thought Suhuy told Merlin to bring the cord that became Frakir with him. I assumed that a mystical artifact came w/ Logrus. Mandor had his metal balls, Merlin Frakir so on.
Quote from: Rel Fexive;490451The Logrus should not be predictable. Neither should it be the same as Pattern, in order to keep things interesting.
I've never seen it this way. Next time we start a new campaign, I'll make the Logrus a bit more random. Looking forward to seeing the results of that experiment.
Thanks!
Quote from: AshenHaze;491290Could be remembering this incorrectly, I thought Suhuy told Merlin to bring the cord that became Frakir with him. I assumed that a mystical artifact came w/ Logrus. Mandor had his metal balls, Merlin Frakir so on.
Isn't it that Suhuy berates him for not bringing something more useful like a sword or chalice?
Quote from: weilide;491490Isn't it that Suhuy berates him for not bringing something more useful like a sword or chalice?
I seem to remember something along those lines. Does anyone have a quote?
Can we infer from this some standardisation when it comes to the Logrus or is the Logrus all "I don't have to comform to your norms, man!"?
//Panjumanju
I've been meaning to dredge up this post from the Days Before the Internet, but the thing to remember about the Amber Chronicles is that they're all told by provably unreliable narrators, with agendas, and in a very sparse literary style that deliberately leaves a lot to the imagination. It's very hard to say anything conclusively positive about the events of the Chronicles, and about the most you can say in a negative sense is that the narrator(s) never explicitly say that such a thing happens or is possible.
There's so little about the Logrus in the Amber Chronicles that you can basically define it any way you want.
I think the Logrus grants that you won't have to fucking go through it ever again to use its power.
But if you want to be more creative than that, I think that part of what might cause the insanity is that the Logrus grants visions; wild crazy visions of shit that may not be, or may not be YET, in that insanity there can be secrets and wisdom or value eventually...
RPGPundit
I seem to remember in one of the later books one of the members of the Courts of Chaos mentions using the Logrus to reach out into Shadow to snag what he wants and bring it to him. Sorta the opposite of the Pattern. The Pattern allows one Transport to a Shadow of His Desire and the Logrus brings One's Desire to Him. Kinda Sorta...
Quote from: greylond;492111I seem to remember in one of the later books one of the members of the Courts of Chaos mentions using the Logrus to reach out into Shadow to snag what he wants and bring it to him.
Same here. I also think I remember having read that the Logrus grants power over Shadow (which would include retrieving stuff from Shadow) *and* the power of travel.
Plus, and I know this is a show-stopper, but Zelazny himself approved of Wuj's descriptions of the powers, so this should put an end to all those discussions...
Quote from: Norbert G. Matausch;492449Plus, and I know this is a show-stopper, but Zelazny himself approved of Wuj's descriptions of the powers, so this should put an end to all those discussions...
You'd think.
//Panjumanju
I'm a hopeless idealist, I know ;)
We're talking about our games, not Roger's or Erick's.
Quote from: RTrimmer;493237We're talking about our games, not Roger's or Erick's.
I don't understand the point you're making. Are you saying that the powers in Amber DRPG only work if you are Roger or Erick? Please clarify.
//Panjumanju
Quote from: RTrimmer;493237We're talking about our games, not Roger's or Erick's.
We're also posting on a forum that bears the title "The Official Amber DRPG and Erick Wujik Fanforum". Just sayin'.
I meant that each game master can interpret the powers (or Attributes, etc.) as he or she pleases. Erick invites us to do so explicitly.
Quote from: Norbert G. Matausch;492449Same here. I also think I remember having read that the Logrus grants power over Shadow (which would include retrieving stuff from Shadow) *and* the power of travel.
Plus, and I know this is a show-stopper, but Zelazny himself approved of Wuj's descriptions of the powers, so this should put an end to all those discussions...
That's right, but I think the discussion here is not about what Logrus can do ordinarily; I think we're basically in agreement about the "bring things from shadow" stuff. The question is what happens when you actually get initiated into the logrus; like in the same way that when you walk the actual pattern in amber (or one of the other ones) if you survive you get to teleport absolutely anywhere. The OP was asking whether there was some equivalent reward to traversing the Logrus.
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Quote from: Panjumanju;490340Who has run into this circumstance in their game? What are some other solutions to this problem that people have put forward?
source material suggests that even if you train up for Logrus, it kills or maims or permanently damages your mind.... even those who succeed often have temporary insanity or lingering wounds...
..given that a successful Logrus user can grab stuff in shadow... I imagine that walking the Logrus again to be able to get a 'Higher Success' in grabbing something from shadow would be anti-climatic if not impractical or foolish...
...since the Logrus is a spinning tendril weaving nightmare of power... perhaps walking it again (shudder) would be the ultimate Tarot vision of possible future matters... penetrating and mingling your mind with visions from the infinite reach of the Logrus foci.... if you didn't go mad again.
YMMV
Yeah, I tend to imply that immersing in the logrus is highly dangerous. I've also borrowed that idea from Merlin's saga that something you bring with you as an object might end up being particularly affected by the Logrus in some way.
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New here. First post, actually.
I enjoyed reading this thread.
Balanced Powers
It seems that there are as many options and/or opinions about the balance of power between the Logrus and the Pattern. From point cost to application, many players and game masters struggle with this puzzle. The truth lies with in the player and her/his relationship with the game.
I've had players sit around for about an hour just pondering which path they are going to choose, Logrus or Pattern. They wage war in their minds, right brain verses left brain where math and creative spark meet. I've been asked almost every question in the multi-verses about which I think the player should choose. Almost every player asks, which is the better buy?
To that my reply is, to what end? A character with the Logrus can send forth a tendril into infinite Shadow and pluck forth anything they can relate to the Logrus. Or, should they choose, once found through the Logrus they can be brought to the object. Yes, there are things that can go wrong, and block, or otherwise thwart the Logrus user. However, these are the first and foremost primary functions described in the Logrus power.
The same character with the Pattern can seek out an object (including a place) and move toward it. It CANNOT be brought to them. Sure, they can Hellride to this object, but one can agree that THAT simply is not the same choice one has with the Logrus. Yes, there are things that can go wrong, and block, or otherwise thwart the Pattern user. However, this is the only primary function described in the Pattern power.
There are no prerequisites for the ability of Pattern imprint. It grants said powers and also marks the character as a blood-descendant of Amber. It's a freebie to be an heir to the throne. Now, let us take a closer look at what that really means. For 50 points, you get cool shadow walking powers, a nice defense in a lot of cases, in line for the throne...Wait. IN LINE FOR THE THRONE! And all the games each Amberite plays in that ball of wax. This can draw a lot of serious problems for anyone daring to take Pattern.
Let us look at the Logrus. Prerequisite for this power is Shape-shifting. Which has its own set of flaws, but the perks appear to out weight those. Once you have the Logrus your character gets the nifty abilities described there in. And a side order of crazy. However, it does NOT make you an heir of anything in Chaos. It gives you no claim to the throne. So you are not gaining an immeasurable amount of problems from an immeasurable source of play.
The big concept. From the center of the Pattern, you can go anywhere-anywhere. And from the Logrus, you cannot. Well, frankly...says who? Would that not depend on the relationship the character has with the Logrus? If the Logrus is unpredictable, then why could not also perform the same function as the Pattern? Would it do it all the time? Well...Would that not depend on the relationship one has with the Logrus? Too many questions here folks that only the GM can answer. And she/he cannot be wrong.
Looking at the other hand, has anyone from the center of the Pattern asked it to bring her/him a pizza (or anything else)? Would it work? And all the same unanswered questions from above. And the GM cannot be wrong.
Zelazny and the Makers of
AMBER DRPG have given us all a gift. The gift of making universes in our own image. To balance and unbalance as we the GMs see fit. The powers do not have to appear balanced to anyone who reads the rule guide book. They are balanced, but perhaps not in regard of how they are used, but how they are obtained. Balanced in how each character potentially could use each power. With infinite possibilities available, if the player wants a pizza from the Logrus or Pattern... Go for it. But, it's going to be an adventure.
I like this topic. Thanks for bringing it up.
Good first contribution. Welcome to theRPGsite!
RPGPundit
Hello everyone - just joined the forum. It's been a long time since I actually played Amber, but I just finished rereading the books and talking over some ideas with a friend, and started thinking up some stuff for a campaign which I may run soon.
Here's my take on the Logrus: Once you finish walking it, you MIGHT be able to command it to do all sorts of things. But the one thing we know for certain is that it drives you mad at least for a while. So a character is probably in no fit state to choose what happens. Merlin probably didn't decide that it would be fun to have a semi-sentient, mobile piece of string. Maybe it was just random power that chose that manifestation. Maybe the Logrus itself chose to do it. Or perhaps some subconscious impulse of Merlin's caused it, which makes a certain amount of sense to me - he felt threatened at home by Jurt's feud with him, and so produced an item which offered a measure of defence as well as attack.
I always felt that Suhuy was present whenever someone attempted the Logrus, not so much to help them through it as the elders might in Amber, but to be able to stop them if they went too crazy at the end. I picture him standing with a sleep spell hung, ready to knock out the candidate before retrieving them and putting them in a padded room until they recover enough for him to give them their final lesson.
It's not something that players should be doing for a one-shot benefit. And certainly not something that they keep doing again and again because "I get something really good at the end." My first Amber GM made sure that Chaos players were really glad that they never had to go through it again.
Quote from: Kolvir;527543Hello everyone - just joined the forum. It's been a long time since I actually played Amber, but I just finished rereading the books and talking over some ideas with a friend, and started thinking up some stuff for a campaign which I may run soon.
Here's my take on the Logrus: Once you finish walking it, you MIGHT be able to command it to do all sorts of things. But the one thing we know for certain is that it drives you mad at least for a while. So a character is probably in no fit state to choose what happens. Merlin probably didn't decide that it would be fun to have a semi-sentient, mobile piece of string. Maybe it was just random power that chose that manifestation. Maybe the Logrus itself chose to do it. Or perhaps some subconscious impulse of Merlin's caused it, which makes a certain amount of sense to me - he felt threatened at home by Jurt's feud with him, and so produced an item which offered a measure of defence as well as attack.
I always felt that Suhuy was present whenever someone attempted the Logrus, not so much to help them through it as the elders might in Amber, but to be able to stop them if they went too crazy at the end. I picture him standing with a sleep spell hung, ready to knock out the candidate before retrieving them and putting them in a padded room until they recover enough for him to give them their final lesson.
It's not something that players should be doing for a one-shot benefit. And certainly not something that they keep doing again and again because "I get something really good at the end." My first Amber GM made sure that Chaos players were really glad that they never had to go through it again.
Yes, this all makes good sense. Welcome to theRPGsite!
RPGPundit
Quote from: Kolvir;527543It's not something that players should be doing for a one-shot benefit. And certainly not something that they keep doing again and again because "I get something really good at the end." My first Amber GM made sure that Chaos players were really glad that they never had to go through it again.
This is actually a technique I was never able to master as an Amber GM - making walking the Pattern or essaying the Logrus dangerous in and of itself, as it's portrayed in the books. I know the book advises throwing all manner of distractions and challenges at players while they're doing it, but that gets old very quickly, and "magic teleporter to the McGuffin in the basement? Let's go!" seems to pop up all the time in my Amber games.
About the only answer I could come up with was using the only currency that exists in a game of Amber: play time. I just made it take all session for the player in question. If you really want to walk the Pattern, great, but you're not doing anything else this session so it had better be important.
Well taking up a whole session is certainly one way of cutting down on Pattern walking. The approach I used was to make it completely draining. Corwin, king of endurance, was drained pretty heavily every time he did it. So I have no problem telling players the only thing they want to do after walking it is to go to sleep!
Yeah, I think having it take up a whole session is somewhat extreme, particularly since days can go by in one of my sessions, and I don't think walking the pattern takes days.
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Keeping a journal is a thing worth points in game; So writing=value. I think I would require a player to write a description of what the walk was like. Almost every other book has one all alike yet unique. Make it short but personal and truly evocative of the experience in the books. Give them as much time as they need but withhold all points until it's done. The more they walk it the more I would require from them. I have never used this, it just came to me but seems simple, elegant even. Make walking it seem a task yet one that advances their character and the game.
They do mention several times that the Logrus makes you crazy for a while. It also seems like Logrus vision is something that the pattern does not offer, or Merlin just never uses it. Logrus overall seems to be Merlin's go to and it seems like he actually gained nothing from traversing the pattern, nothing he used anyway. I would make summing Logrus sight, easier if not better than the same for pattern users. Also yes the total cost for pattern vs logrus seems a bit off, Pattern 50+0 (amber rank endurance) Logrus 45+35-10 (shape shift, chaos rank endurance) I would actually give a psyche bonus to logrus users when fighting pattern users, as sorcery really seems to be a Logrus thing. There's also the fact that the prerequisites are assets in themselves. If you, or your players, feel they are unbalanced there's some counter arguments. As for braving the Logrus to get something special? DARE YOU MAKE DEMANDS OF THE LOGRUS! An intact mind seems good enough...unless you have some points you want to spend.
I think probably the best consensus to come out of this thread was the sentiment: "Logrus don't owe you nothin'!" Logrus is crazy like that.
//Panjumanju
Quote from: ultralogan;588561They do mention several times that the Logrus makes you crazy for a while. It also seems like Logrus vision is something that the pattern does not offer, or Merlin just never uses it. Logrus overall seems to be Merlin's go to and it seems like he actually gained nothing from traversing the pattern, nothing he used anyway. I would make summing Logrus sight, easier if not better than the same for pattern users. Also yes the total cost for pattern vs logrus seems a bit off, Pattern 50+0 (amber rank endurance) Logrus 45+35-10 (shape shift, chaos rank endurance) I would actually give a psyche bonus to logrus users when fighting pattern users, as sorcery really seems to be a Logrus thing. \
I would disagree; I think the balance created by the Amber DRPG system is particularly clever regarding logrus users: the powers they get are very versatile, they can generally do more cool stuff with their Psyche than an Amberite; but the cost of those powers means that their Rank in Psyche (their actual raw power) is going to be less.
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