Pattern Takes You Anywhere, Logrus ... makes a Pizza?

[Norbert G. Matausch]

I seem to remember in one of the later books one of the members of the Courts of Chaos mentions using the Logrus to reach out into Shadow to snag what he wants and bring it to him.

Same here. I also think I remember having read that the Logrus grants power over Shadow (which would include retrieving stuff from Shadow) *and* the power of travel.

Plus, and I know this is a show-stopper, but Zelazny himself approved of Wuj's descriptions of the powers, so this should put an end to all those discussions...

[Panjumanju]

Plus, and I know this is a show-stopper, but Zelazny himself approved of Wuj's descriptions of the powers, so this should put an end to all those discussions...

You'd think.

//Panjumanju

[Norbert G. Matausch]

I'm a hopeless idealist, I know

[RTrimmer]

We're talking about our games, not Roger's or Erick's.

[Panjumanju]

We're talking about our games, not Roger's or Erick's.

I don't understand the point you're making. Are you saying that the powers in Amber DRPG only work if you are Roger or Erick? Please clarify.

//Panjumanju

[Norbert G. Matausch]

We're talking about our games, not Roger's or Erick's.

We're also posting on a forum that bears the title "The Official Amber DRPG and Erick Wujik Fanforum". Just sayin'.

[RTrimmer]

I meant that each game master can interpret the powers (or Attributes, etc.) as he or she pleases. Erick invites us to do so explicitly.

[RPGPundit]

Same here. I also think I remember having read that the Logrus grants power over Shadow (which would include retrieving stuff from Shadow) *and* the power of travel.

Plus, and I know this is a show-stopper, but Zelazny himself approved of Wuj's descriptions of the powers, so this should put an end to all those discussions...

That's right, but I think the discussion here is not about what Logrus can do ordinarily; I think we're basically in agreement about the "bring things from shadow" stuff.  The question is what happens when you actually get initiated into the logrus; like in the same way that when you walk the actual pattern in amber (or one of the other ones) if you survive you get to teleport absolutely anywhere.  The OP was asking whether there was some equivalent reward to traversing the Logrus.

RPGPundit

[Arref]

Who has run into this circumstance in their game? What are some other solutions to this problem that people have put forward?

source material suggests that even if you train up for Logrus, it kills or maims or permanently damages your mind.... even those who succeed often have temporary insanity or lingering wounds...

..given that a successful Logrus user can grab stuff in shadow... I imagine that walking the Logrus again to be able to get a 'Higher Success' in grabbing something from shadow would be anti-climatic if not impractical or foolish...

...since the Logrus is a spinning tendril weaving nightmare of power... perhaps walking it again (shudder) would be the ultimate Tarot vision of possible future matters... penetrating and mingling your mind with visions from the infinite reach of the Logrus foci....  if you didn't go mad again.

YMMV

[RPGPundit]

Yeah, I tend to imply that immersing in the logrus is highly dangerous.  I've also borrowed that idea from Merlin's saga that something you bring with you as an object might end up being particularly affected by the Logrus in some way.

RPGPundit

[Eon Raven]

New here. First post, actually.

I enjoyed reading this thread.

Balanced Powers

    It seems that there are as many options and/or opinions about the balance of power between the Logrus and the Pattern. From point cost to application, many players and game masters struggle with this puzzle. The truth lies with in the player and her/his relationship with the game.
     I've had players sit around for about an hour just pondering which path they are going to choose, Logrus or Pattern. They wage war in their minds, right brain verses left brain where math and creative spark meet. I've been asked almost every question in the multi-verses about which I think the player should choose. Almost every player asks, which is the better buy?
     To that my reply is, to what end? A character with the Logrus can send forth a tendril into infinite Shadow and pluck forth anything they can relate to the Logrus. Or, should they choose, once found through the Logrus they can be brought to the object. Yes, there are things that can go wrong, and block, or otherwise thwart the Logrus user. However, these are the first and foremost primary functions described in the Logrus power.
     The same character with the Pattern can seek out an object (including a place) and move toward it. It CANNOT be brought to them. Sure, they can Hellride to this object, but one can agree that THAT simply is not the same choice one has with the Logrus. Yes, there are things that can go wrong, and block, or otherwise thwart the Pattern user. However, this is the only primary function described in the Pattern power.
     There are no prerequisites for the ability of Pattern imprint. It grants said powers and also marks the character as a blood-descendant of Amber. It's a freebie to be an heir to the throne. Now, let us take a closer look at what that really means. For 50 points, you get cool shadow walking powers, a nice defense in a lot of cases, in line for the throne...Wait. IN LINE FOR THE THRONE! And all the games each Amberite plays in that ball of wax. This can draw a lot of serious problems for anyone daring to take Pattern.
     Let us look at the Logrus. Prerequisite for this power is Shape-shifting. Which has its own set of flaws, but the perks appear to out weight those. Once you have the Logrus your character gets the nifty abilities described there in. And a side order of crazy. However, it does NOT make you an heir of anything in Chaos. It gives you no claim to the throne. So you are not gaining an immeasurable amount of problems from an immeasurable source of play.
     The big concept. From the center of the Pattern, you can go anywhere-anywhere. And from the Logrus, you cannot. Well, frankly...says who?  Would that not depend on the relationship the character has with the Logrus? If the Logrus is unpredictable, then why could not also perform the same function as the Pattern? Would it do it all the time? Well...Would that not depend on the relationship one has with the Logrus? Too many questions here folks that only the GM can answer. And she/he cannot be wrong.
     Looking at the other hand, has anyone from the center of the Pattern asked it to bring her/him a pizza (or anything else)? Would it work? And all the same unanswered questions from above. And the GM cannot be wrong.
     Zelazny and the Makers of AMBER DRPG have given us all a gift. The gift of making universes in our own image. To balance and unbalance as we the GMs see fit. The powers do not have to appear balanced to anyone who reads the rule guide book. They are balanced, but perhaps not in regard of how they are used, but how they are obtained. Balanced in how each character potentially could use each power. With infinite possibilities available, if the player wants a pizza from the Logrus or Pattern... Go for it. But, it's going to be an adventure.

     I like this topic. Thanks for bringing it up.

[RPGPundit]

Good first contribution.  Welcome to theRPGsite!

RPGPundit

[Kolvir]

Hello everyone - just joined the forum. It's been a long time since I actually played Amber, but I just finished rereading the books and talking over some ideas with a friend, and started thinking up some stuff for a campaign which I may run soon.

Here's my take on the Logrus: Once you finish walking it, you MIGHT be able to command it to do all sorts of things. But the one thing we know for certain is that it drives you mad at least for a while. So a character is probably in no fit state to choose what happens. Merlin probably didn't decide that it would be fun to have a semi-sentient, mobile piece of string. Maybe it was just random power that chose that manifestation. Maybe the Logrus itself chose to do it. Or perhaps some subconscious impulse of Merlin's caused it, which makes a certain amount of sense to me - he felt threatened at home by Jurt's feud with him, and so produced an item which offered a measure of defence as well as attack.

I always felt that Suhuy was present whenever someone attempted the Logrus, not so much to help them through it as the elders might in Amber, but to be able to stop them if they went too crazy at the end. I picture him standing with a sleep spell hung, ready to knock out the candidate before retrieving them and putting them in a padded room until they recover enough for him to give them their final lesson.

It's not something that players should be doing for a one-shot benefit. And certainly not something that they keep doing again and again because "I get something really good at the end." My first Amber GM made sure that Chaos players were really glad that they never had to go through it again.

[RPGPundit]

Hello everyone - just joined the forum. It's been a long time since I actually played Amber, but I just finished rereading the books and talking over some ideas with a friend, and started thinking up some stuff for a campaign which I may run soon.

Here's my take on the Logrus: Once you finish walking it, you MIGHT be able to command it to do all sorts of things. But the one thing we know for certain is that it drives you mad at least for a while. So a character is probably in no fit state to choose what happens. Merlin probably didn't decide that it would be fun to have a semi-sentient, mobile piece of string. Maybe it was just random power that chose that manifestation. Maybe the Logrus itself chose to do it. Or perhaps some subconscious impulse of Merlin's caused it, which makes a certain amount of sense to me - he felt threatened at home by Jurt's feud with him, and so produced an item which offered a measure of defence as well as attack.

I always felt that Suhuy was present whenever someone attempted the Logrus, not so much to help them through it as the elders might in Amber, but to be able to stop them if they went too crazy at the end. I picture him standing with a sleep spell hung, ready to knock out the candidate before retrieving them and putting them in a padded room until they recover enough for him to give them their final lesson.

It's not something that players should be doing for a one-shot benefit. And certainly not something that they keep doing again and again because "I get something really good at the end." My first Amber GM made sure that Chaos players were really glad that they never had to go through it again.

Yes, this all makes good sense.  Welcome to theRPGsite!

RPGPundit

[daniel_ream]

It's not something that players should be doing for a one-shot benefit. And certainly not something that they keep doing again and again because "I get something really good at the end." My first Amber GM made sure that Chaos players were really glad that they never had to go through it again.

This is actually a technique I was never able to master as an Amber GM - making walking the Pattern or essaying the Logrus dangerous in and of itself, as it's portrayed in the books.  I know the book advises throwing all manner of distractions and challenges at players while they're doing it, but that gets old very quickly, and "magic teleporter to the McGuffin in the basement?  Let's go!" seems to pop up all the time in my Amber games.

About the only answer I could come up with was using the only currency that exists in a game of Amber: play time.  I just made it take all session for the player in question.  If you really want to walk the Pattern, great, but you're not doing anything else this session so it had better be important.