I know pattern swords have been discussed numerous times throughout the forums, but a new campaign for me is coming up and I thought it'd be nice to get a list of names for Pattern swords to draw upon.
The only names we know for sure are Greyswandir and Werewindle. Bleys sword is also likely a pattern sword.
I am pondering using Sindlflare (Sihn dehl flair) for Bleys sword.
What would you name Bleys pattern sword or any other pattern sword for that matter?
I'd suggest "Arianrhod", but that's about four levels of cryptic punnery and inside jokes.
I suggest that if you're going to steal, steal from the best. Some of the best quasi-mystical names I ever heard came from the cartoon of "Visionaries: Knights of the Magical Light". Just the wizards alone:
Bogavus (Bow-gaw-vis)
Falcama (Fall-ka-ma)
Gleering (Gleer-ing)
Hescador (Hess-ka-door)
Orzan (Ore-zhan)
Marna (Marr-nah)
Abraxus (Ah-braks-us)
...would make great pattern sword names.
//Panjumanju
In my games, Bleys' sword was literally called "the Golden Sword".
Gerard's was also literally called "Big Sword".
RPGPundit
Loving how Pundit really captures the spirit and feel of the game with those great names.
Generally we have 9 pattern swords, one for each pattern ....
Names have included
Shallowkiss
Solace
Succour
I guess I have a thing for Sssss es
So this is from an old campaign when a PC with advanced Pattern asked about Pattern Swords .....
It would have been hundreds of years ago now the details of dates do not matter overmuch in any case. Sequence and order, stress and balance they are most important in this matter. Time to an Amberite is a relative phenomena more so than even dear old Albert could have guessed. Dworkin, mentor and patient teacher. Prone to ravings and mood swings? Yes, that was the Barimen way, but in contrast the outpourings of wisdom from Dworkin’s lips could be likened to drops of golden nectar from blossoming summer flowers.
For it was he who had shown you secrets not available to the rest of your kin. You remembered when he was less elusive than he has been of late, just after the creation of the Sanctum; you were in his company much then.
“Young Cornelius, what a question, it was very difficult back then in the beginning I had so many enemies, so many. How did I triumph? I created swords… precocious master, swords, swords of the Pattern. The ‘pattern swords’, you can call them that if you wish. Yes… they still exist. I created them during my initial wanderings, when I explored the fresh shadows of my design, for the pattern was static, defensive and primal. But I needed a vessel with which to carry the fight to the enemy, I needed to offend chaos, I needed the Pattern swords, my venom, my teeth. The fringes of shadow, the edges of oblivion needed championing too. There were eight swords, one for each of the primary pattern shadows. Yes of course you knew that the Pattern in Amber is just one of the images created by the Primal Pattern as it etches it’s uniformity upon the echoing realms of Chaos. First of these is the Pattern known to all Amberites. You refer to it as The Pattern, but in truth it is the Pattern of Knowledge. It is the truest reflection of my clarity of purpose when I carved order from the bottomless void. Of the other seven shadows two are well known. The Patterns of Remba and Tir-na nog’th were impossible to conceal. They are the Patterns of Sorrow and the Pattern of Dreams. You must remember that I could not know the full extent of my actions when I drew out the Primal Pattern I never knew that my own personality would be refracted in the shadows that spilled from it.
“So then I see you are eager to learn of the other patterns and indeed you should for I see that you will be the guardian of the Pattern in time to come and into your trust will Order and Creation be placed. I will name them then; the Pattern of Stone; the Pattern of Truth; the Pattern of Fire; the Pattern of Destiny and the Pattern of Balance. Each exists a shadow’s breath from the Primal Pattern but only a master can manipulate shadow this close to the Source. It is a skill you will learn in time.
“As I say the pattern was a defensive force static and unmoving and I needed to silence my critics who would smite my work asunder before it had even begun. I forged eight swords and sought to create eight Champions to bear them. The latter I fear was a feat that still eludes me and that I trusted to your father Oberon. The first, from the Pattern of Knowledge was Solace and this is born by Oberon himself. Then came Shallowkiss the Sword of Sorrow born by Arden, then Werewindle the Sword of Fire born by Serge and lost to shadow as he was. Then came Arkmight the Sword of Stone born by Ernaux, then Chrysaor the sword of truth, that is also called Axiom, given to Lysander. The remaining three swords were too valuable to risk and when Serge disappeared into shadow I hid them or disguised their true purpose. Greyswandir the blade of Dreams, Jerubal the Blade of Destiny and Pelagrim the Ash blade the Sword of Balance. One of the purposes of the Sanctum was to identify the eight wardens that would emerge as Champions of Order, but the time has not yet come.’ And he could not be drawn any more. As he turned away, you could not help but ask the question that formed unbidden in your mind... “A ninth sword you say, the Primal Blade…” answered Dworkin, and he just smiled.
Dworkin had lit a bright fire in your belly, you dedicated yourself to the study of the Pattern, and your skill increased measure by measure with your dedication. There was a primal Pattern you knew that now; the source of Amber and order.. Of the other Patterns, the Rebman Pattern, the Pattern of Sorrow, was often closed. Rebma was a ‘sea’ of political intrigue and best avoided, or at least so went the instructions of Oberon. There was the Pattern of Dreams, but Tir Na Nog’th was vague and intranssient. You soon despaired of its contrariness and confined your study to The Great Pattern, located in the dungeons of Amber. And you learnt much.
But the way was not easy, so often when it seemed you were on the verge of a breakthrough, Oberon would summon you for some task or other. But there was one other occasion of revelation still to come; a time when you managed to corner Dworkin again. It occurred soon after the self imposed exile of Prospero, who had tended to monopolise Dworkin’s time with his paintings and sculptures.
You talked once more of swords and their making,
“He who would forge Pattern swords, must find a Pattern susceptible to his level of power, the primal pattern is beyond even I but to each according to his ability”, Dworkin hinted. You were about to press him further but he was following a train of thought and from experience you knew it was best not to interrupt such moments of plain lucidity. “The swords are forged in the centre of the power, the centre of Order, cut from the pattern with the instrument of their design and tempered with the blood of the chosen. The process is arduous and draining, but in matters to thwart the Serpent, this is often the way of the world…” and with that he would speak no more on the matter.
Quote from: RPGPundit;578261In my games, Bleys' sword was literally called "the Golden Sword".
Gerard's was also literally called "Big Sword".
Well, Greyswandir just means "Grey Sword" and Werewindle "Man's Wand" (possibly "a man's bushel of wheat", but it's hard to find the mythical resonance in that. Zelazny could be obscure, but he tended not to be cryptic).
Don't get me wrong; there were plenty of other weapons I gave names to (or my players did) in the campaign that were evocative or elaborate. I just felt that in those two cases, it was kind of fitting to the characters in question that the names be very straightforward.
RPGPundit
Quote from: daniel_ream;579067Well, Greyswandir just means "Grey Sword" and Werewindle "Man's Wand" (possibly "a man's bushel of wheat", but it's hard to find the mythical resonance in that. Zelazny could be obscure, but he tended not to be cryptic).
I wasn't aware of that. What language is Zelazny using for those? Or is that from other source material?
Thanks for your insights guys, always nice to get new ideas from other peoples minds instead of always relying on my own for good ideas.
Old English, mostly, with some hefty Celtic influence. The Chronicles of Amber are stuffed full to bursting with references to medieval literature and Celtic myth (that most people don't get because they don't spend years of their lives studying medieval French poetry).
For instance, you spotted that the loss and replacement of Benedict's arm was a reference to Nuada of the Silver Hand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuada_Airgetl%C3%A1m), right?
Quote from: daniel_ream;581211For instance, you spotted that the loss and replacement of Benedict's arm was a reference to Nuada of the Silver Hand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuada_Airgetl%C3%A1m), right?
Most directly, yes. But also referential to a number of other mythological ideas; Zelazny does some surprisingly good work at touching on the whole notion of jungian archetypes or monomyths in how he represents the Amberites; they're clearly not any Earth Pantheon of gods, but you look at them and you can imagine how just about every pantheon from our earth could have emerged from very twisted-up versions of stories or racial memories of the Amberites.
RPGPundit
I created three more Pattern blades for a game encompassing the beginning of the Universe and how Amber came to be separate from the Courts of Chaos.
Ombrielle. Midnight's Kiss – the dark blade, given away by Benedict. Black with purple and blue.
Oriandra – the Shadow blade. Shades of gray.
Mornfleur - the Dawn blade. Rosy red, orange, and pink.
And out of curiosity, who had each blade?
RPGPundit
I think if you check Zelazny's original material, you will find that Corwin's blade is also called the Nightblade and Brand's sword was Dayblade.
[tease]
And they had names long before they were swords.
Quote from: Arref;582423I think if you check Zelazny's original material, you will find that Corwin's blade is also called the Nightblade and Brand's sword was Dayblade.
That's certainly well within what "Greyswandir" and "Werewindle" could be stretched to mean.
Quote from: RPGPundit;582248And out of curiosity, who had each blade?
Ombrielle and Oriandra were given to Osric and Finndo, respectively, immediately before they set out to make war upon a House of Chaos. Benedict's brothers were suspicious of Oberon; he gave them the two Pattern blades to reassure them. :D
These two blades were destroyed when Osric and Finndo threw them into the Logrus, cutting that Power loose from its anchors and making it the unstable beast it is today.
Mornfleur - the Dawn blade. This is Bleys's sword. Clarissa gained two of the Pattern swords from Dworkin (through nefarious means, of course) and gave them to her sons.
Quote from: Tarion'sCousin;582449Mornfleur - the Dawn blade. This is Bleys's sword. Clarissa gained two of the Pattern swords from Dworkin (through nefarious means, of course) and gave them to her sons.
Makes sense, but would that then be the same sword as his Golden Sword? Or something else?
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;582733Makes sense, but would that then be the same sword as his Golden Sword?
Yeah, it tied things up neatly to do it that way. I wanted Clarissa to have done something historically that had consequences--besides bear Oberon three known children.
Also, it manufactured a reason why Brand had a Pattern Blade (besides due to the author's plot points). I mean, getting the good equipment for your sons is a viable reason for Brand (and Bleys) to have Pattern Blades, in my opinion.
Otherwise, it doesn't makes sense to me for Brand to have Werewindle. Wouldn't Oberon have given it to a better swordsman, like Eric, or Bleys?
Quote from: Tarion'sCousin;583130Yeah, it tied things up neatly to do it that way. I wanted Clarissa to have done something historically that had consequences--besides bear Oberon three known children.
Also, it manufactured a reason why Brand had a Pattern Blade (besides due to the author's plot points). I mean, getting the good equipment for your sons is a viable reason for Brand (and Bleys) to have Pattern Blades, in my opinion.
Otherwise, it doesn't makes sense to me for Brand to have Werewindle. Wouldn't Oberon have given it to a better swordsman, like Eric, or Bleys?
Well, that is a good question. You could argue he might give it to weaker children of his to give them some kind of counterbalance, but Corwin was certainly not a 'weaker child'. You could also just chalk it up to some kind of cosmic-destiny thing. Certainly, I can imagine Benedict or Gerard feeling like they really don't need a special super-sword. On the other hand, if Bleys had not been so favored, I imagine he'd have had some serious envy going on with his brother.
RPGPundit
No none of it makes sense. If Oberon were to give out magic swords and one went to Corwin, one to Brand then he would have only given them to those he saw as potential heirs. It's made clear that he didn't favor Eric after the Corwin incident, but could he have been surprised that Eric would kill Corwin given the chance? I think the anti Eric sentiments were more a reaction to the surprise and disappointment that Eric won. What I don't really understand is the line. Shadow can be anything, will it go there and get what you want, right? But there are limits, or Brand could have just "found another Jewel of Judgement" in shadow. Fakir just came from a Logrus walk and seems on par with grayswandir. In the RPG how do you limit shadows?
Quote from: ultralogan;583619No none of it makes sense. If Oberon were to give out magic swords and one went to Corwin, one to Brand then he would have only given them to those he saw as potential heirs. It's made clear that he didn't favor Eric after the Corwin incident, but could he have been surprised that Eric would kill Corwin given the chance? I think the anti Eric sentiments were more a reaction to the surprise and disappointment that Eric won. What I don't really understand is the line. Shadow can be anything, will it go there and get what you want, right? But there are limits, or Brand could have just "found another Jewel of Judgement" in shadow. Fakir just came from a Logrus walk and seems on par with grayswandir. In the RPG how do you limit shadows?
Last question is a good one.
Basically you can find anything in shadow but the more points it has the more localised its power. So you can indeed find another JoJ but its effects will be limited to a small number of shadows. Now within those shadows perhaps you can create a pocket universe going down the fractal route but you won't be able to affect externals.
So take some typical examples. You want to beat up your brother who is tougher than you so you shadow walk to a version of the DC universe and recruit the JLA. No Amberite is a strong as Superman or as fast as The Flash so you are good to go. Now the JLA is a pretty expensive item.... say each one is a 32 point 'creature' and they are Named and Numbered for ease.. so 64 points worth... a long walk. However, you will find that the JLA's powers only work in a narrow range of shadows and as they move away from their home they become progressively less impressive in Amber if you get there they will be no match for a Amberite (well actually the brain Wayne and the tactics of Wonder woman and Superman etc will still make them great allies).
You want to find Excalibur and make it Primal Damage to Children of Amber (16 points) no problem but .... take it out of Avalon/Camelot and it will quickly diminish in power.
Now this is my take on things. It works in play for sure. To get items with some sort of permanent shadow wide power you need to buy them thus making them part of your character or you need to use a power to create them. I am all for new powers by the way so I am not just talking Pattern, Logrus or Trump.
Very good answer, and it covers much of my questions. How would you deal with knowledge? I mean there are several times in the books that knowledge of powers and how the universe works are the key to gaining the upper hand. Also with the JL example I can see that at creation but what about after? Corwin spent no time or effort finding his harry guys, and if you accept you can find shadow traveling creatures like Random's friends from nine princes, why not a shadow of pattern experts? Say religious fanatics who just happen to be right about everything? In one interpretation of reading the books you could argue that that shadow can't not exist. It just seems like so many things that you have to pay for at creation could just be gotten from shadow in play. Zelazny gives mixed messages on this in the novels. Blaise's armies (the one he used when attacking with Corwin, and the one Brand and Fi imply he is going to use) seems to have taken a while to gather, but Benidict marshals a force to threaten Chaos in a matter of (relative) hours. And again back to Fakir why spend points? why not just walk Logrus, in game, and say hey look magic sentient bracelet monster? Sorry, if I sound contrarian I don't mean to be but I am thinking of using the amazingness of google docs to do a single, everyone can edit, Amber "game" and don't want to wast time after it starts. I'm planning for the worst with my players even though I mostly trust them with the material. It almost seems that they might get so in character they start looking for rules loopholes that way.
Quote from: ultralogan;583704Very good answer, and it covers much of my questions. How would you deal with knowledge? I mean there are several times in the books that knowledge of powers and how the universe works are the key to gaining the upper hand. Also with the JL example I can see that at creation but what about after? Corwin spent no time or effort finding his harry guys, and if you accept you can find shadow traveling creatures like Random's friends from nine princes, why not a shadow of pattern experts? Say religious fanatics who just happen to be right about everything? In one interpretation of reading the books you could argue that that shadow can't not exist. It just seems like so many things that you have to pay for at creation could just be gotten from shadow in play. Zelazny gives mixed messages on this in the novels. Blaise's armies (the one he used when attacking with Corwin, and the one Brand and Fi imply he is going to use) seems to have taken a while to gather, but Benidict marshals a force to threaten Chaos in a matter of (relative) hours. And again back to Fakir why spend points? why not just walk Logrus, in game, and say hey look magic sentient bracelet monster? Sorry, if I sound contrarian I don't mean to be but I am thinking of using the amazingness of google docs to do a single, everyone can edit, Amber "game" and don't want to wast time after it starts. I'm planning for the worst with my players even though I mostly trust them with the material. It almost seems that they might get so in character they start looking for rules loopholes that way.
I have done a fair few wiki games and so I know where you are soming from:)
I would treat knowledge of Amber a bit differently. You can only find what you are looking for you can't find the correct answer to a thing. An exampel may explain.
A PC finds a very complex message. Its got a cypher and a code and its a riddle. So you could argue all things exist in Shadow so I will walk to find someone that knows the answer to this, and as this has no 'points' it's simple. However, since you don't know the answer you can't find the answer in shadow. 'You can only find what you know how to look for'. You can find a guy that is an expert at codes, maybe a super AI. However you won't be able to check the outcome and in an infinite universe there will be infinite solutions but most of them will be wrong. So you find a guy and he gives you an answer but you have no idea if its correct.
Troops are easier. you can find lots of troops really fast. The simpler the troops the faster they are to find and they will be effective across more shadows. So the JLA will be great in their own shadow but weak by the time they get to Amber. How weak is a GM call. Generally the more effort put in in Amber the better I tend to judge the result. So ... If they spent 64 hours hellriding to DC universe and that took 3 game sessions and they really overcame some stuff on the way I would the JLA pretty effective even in amber. They mighe end up low ranks in Str and Warfare. They will have useful skills. If the PC say okay we have some down tiem I will ride to find the JLA okay now I have found them .... then that version of the JLA will fade much faster be more human-like by the time they reach Amber and be less effective.
Tech items like Batmobiels and Green laterns I wouldn't have work in any case.
The armies the protagonists bring to bear in the books are generally standard humanoids. They are adept and trained but in ADRPG terms no better than Chaos rank. I have had PCs attack Amber with armies of Angels, armies of undead and all sorts in between. The more excessive the power of the creature the more their powers fade as they travel through amber. A horde of 2 point creatures will take a few hours to find but to get the most oout of them I woudl look at the Warfare of the leader and then give them a training time inversly proportional to that skill in order to acheive that level of effectiveness.
So .... in english :) the Rank 3 warfare guy would need to train his troops for 3 tiems longer than the rank 1 guy in order to have them fight as a rank 3 army. If the technology and tactics they are using are familiar I woudl set the base time as a week local shadow time. So the rank 3 warfare guy can find an army and in 3 weeks get them fully trained. If there was a change in tactics, say adding automatic weapons to a bunch of Robin hood style outlaws I would introduce a multiplier.
Now you need to keep all this vague. So the PC tells you he wants to gather an army. You can ask directly how tough do you want them to be? then explain that the tougher they are the more localised their power will be. A wise PC will then say okay I want a shadow wide army of 4 point critters ... or something like that. Then they say right they all worship me as a god so lets get going. I would then say referencing their warfare... you reckon it would take about a month to get these guys totally up to speed. You can get them decent in a couple of weeks. You tend to find that things sort themselves out pretty quickly in play. More so than other games Amber rules need interpretation and there is room for debate but .... as the GM you have a duty to ensure that your interpretation of the rules are clean and fair so you need to answer these sorts of questiosn in your own mind so you can rule on them very crisply.
Now you can use Conjuration and imbue creatures with real power. Conjuration is also shadow specific though enless you imbue it with permanency whcih means 10 times as long to cast (also I measure conjuration times in Amber hours so you can't whizz off to chaos and build a magic army in a day)
Quote from: ultralogan;583619No none of it makes sense. If Oberon were to give out magic swords and one went to Corwin, one to Brand then he would have only given them to those he saw as potential heirs. It's made clear that he didn't favor Eric after the Corwin incident, but could he have been surprised that Eric would kill Corwin given the chance? I think the anti Eric sentiments were more a reaction to the surprise and disappointment that Eric won. What I don't really understand is the line. Shadow can be anything, will it go there and get what you want, right? But there are limits, or Brand could have just "found another Jewel of Judgement" in shadow. Fakir just came from a Logrus walk and seems on par with grayswandir. In the RPG how do you limit shadows?
The way I run the game, the virtue of items that you put actual points in, as opposed to one you just find lying around in shadow, is that they have a measure of reality in them. You can find a Vorpal Sword in a D&D shadow and spend precisely 0 points on it, but then it can just as easily be conjured away, its power negated by logrus or pattern, or simply fail to work in any shadow who's magical "rules" are sufficiently different from the D&D-world you found it on (on earth, for example, that vorpal sword might just turn out to be a normal sword).
On the other hand, the stuff you put points in have a touch of your essence, so they have Reality, and are more durable.
Pattern is the ultimate reality, so a sword made from pattern is going to be a very ultimate kind of Reality Sword.
Logrus is also reality, on the opposite end of the spectrum, so an object infused with reality from the Logrus will also be similarly powerful.
RPGPundit
Quote from: ultralogan;583704Very good answer, and it covers much of my questions. How would you deal with knowledge? I mean there are several times in the books that knowledge of powers and how the universe works are the key to gaining the upper hand. Also with the JL example I can see that at creation but what about after? Corwin spent no time or effort finding his harry guys, and if you accept you can find shadow traveling creatures like Random's friends from nine princes, why not a shadow of pattern experts? Say religious fanatics who just happen to be right about everything? In one interpretation of reading the books you could argue that that shadow can't not exist. It just seems like so many things that you have to pay for at creation could just be gotten from shadow in play. Zelazny gives mixed messages on this in the novels. Blaise's armies (the one he used when attacking with Corwin, and the one Brand and Fi imply he is going to use) seems to have taken a while to gather, but Benidict marshals a force to threaten Chaos in a matter of (relative) hours. And again back to Fakir why spend points? why not just walk Logrus, in game, and say hey look magic sentient bracelet monster? Sorry, if I sound contrarian I don't mean to be but I am thinking of using the amazingness of google docs to do a single, everyone can edit, Amber "game" and don't want to wast time after it starts. I'm planning for the worst with my players even though I mostly trust them with the material. It almost seems that they might get so in character they start looking for rules loopholes that way.
In your previous post you asked why wouldn't Brande just go into shadow and find another Jewel of Judgment; the answer is because it would be a Shadow Jewel of Judgment, it wouldn't be reality; it'd just be a copy. It MIGHT be a copy with some kind of essence of the real one (maybe able to make "broken patterns?"), but it would be nowhere near the potency of the real thing. That's why Amber (and the Courts of Chaos) are so important to the Amberites (and the Chaosians), because they're the only thing that's REAL. Its a neo-Platonism thing.
Similarly, you could go to some shadow and find experts on the pattern in shadow; but they'd be experts of some pattern in shadow; their knowledge would be unlikely to extend to the real thing, so it would be imperfect; of course, if you took one of these guys to the REAL pattern, he might be able to more quickly discern some important things that someone starting from scratch might not. He'd still need the chance to get close to the subject matter.
Could there be some group of sages somewhere in the depths of shadow that have real knowledge of the REAL pattern? Sure, but for that to be true it must be because at some point they were in some way touched by the REAL; not a shadow. So that means that at some point someone else was fucking with them, and it would have to have been someone (or some thing) very powerful. You find a group like that, and you open up a whole can of worms! Perfect fodder for the campaign.
At the same time, a group like that would almost certainly have their own agenda too. A good GM would make use of that.
As for the difference in how long it took Bleys or Corwin vs. Benedict to raise up an army... well, Benedict is one of the oldest amberites, with a vast knowledge of shadow in all likelihood, AND he's the greatest General who ever lived in the entire universe. So its pretty likely that unlike his brothers, he didn't have to go out looking for his army; he probably has several shadows that he'd been tending to for several millennia, breeding warlike races and holding them ever ready for some War in Heaven, just saving them for the rainy day when he'd have to march them across eternity to bring fire and destruction to the multiverse. That's just the kind of guy he is.
RPGPundit