Early in the series (basically all of book 2, and most of book 3 IIRC) Corwin holds himself responsible for the Black Road, as he believes his Blood Curse opened the way. Later in the series we learn that Amberite blood having been spilled on the pattern when Brand stabbed Martin is the cause.
What is your take on this? Was it Corwins Blood Curse that opened the way? Or was it blood on the Pattern? Or some combination of the two?
I'll start this one off by saying the way I have always interpreted this as a result of Martins blood on the Pattern, and that the blood curse had more to do with Eric dying in defense of Amber.
I would especially like to hear from Pundit , Finarvyn, and Panjumanju about this one.
My take is that damaging the Primal Pattern opened cracks in the shadow veils and Corwin's curse made the many twisted paths from anywhere hostile to Amber into highways.
I think it's pretty clear that Zelazny's original intention was that Corwin's blood curse opened the Black Road. Then, getting on into 3 books he came up with a better idea that would establish an over-arching plot for all 5. I think there's even a line where Corwin reflects on this and concludes that it was the blood on the Pattern that opened the black road, but his curse helped it along.
The upshot of this is that when running Amber Diceless you don't have to use the same rules for the universe twice. I ran a game where it was certainly the blood on the pattern that opened the black road. My friend ran a game with the same group where it was something entirely unrelated. If I do it again I want to toy with the idea of the blood curse being responsible, and really strengthen the notion of that final bellowing curse.
Zelazny gives us something of a toolbox with the setting, and Erick Wujcik strengthens this idea. This is what makes it more re-playable than is readily apparent to its critics, because things do not have to unfold the same way.
//Panjumanju
I always took the thing as a whole. I think Panjumanju has a point in what Zelzany might have thought, God knows as a GM I have done the same thing.
but taking it whole cloth I always assumed the Blood stain opened the possibility of the Black Road making it near to Amber. The actual construction was due to Brand's dealings with the courts which is born out more in the second series (It had some useful points :) )
Corwin's curse had more to do directly to Eric's death and the factors leading up to it, him, in general, just being overwhelmed as king and Jewel wielder.
I assume the power of a blood curse is sort of unknown since there have only been a few, I see it as this nebulous unknown no one wants to mess with or experience. An unknown sword hanging above their heads as Royals.
Sometimes I run Benedict being "Unfit" to rule as a result of one of his brothers blood curse making him afraid of taking the throne. but that is just one explanation.
Quote from: Artifacts of Amber;630237Sometimes I run Benedict being "Unfit" to rule as a result of one of his brothers blood curse making him afraid of taking the throne. but that is just one explanation.
Yeah I've been wondering about this as well. IIRC, in one of the books Dworkin says Benedict is cursed. I've speculated extensively as to the nature of this statement. I can certainly see running it as you have described. Perhaps Benedict being cursed by Osric or Finndo.
Found the line in The Hand of Oberon where Dworkin states that Benedict ".. bears the mark of doom"
I have always been curious about this statement. Since it is never addressed beyond this it is totally open to interpretation. Is Benedict blood cursed, or is it something else entirely?
Quote from: Sydius Mendoza;630956I have always been curious about this statement. Since it is never addressed beyond this it is totally open to interpretation. Is Benedict blood cursed, or is it something else entirely?
I think it's pretty boring of me to gush and say "That's why Zelazny's so great", so instead I'll semi-gush and say: "That's why Zelazny's Amber universe is tailored so well for adaptation into the Amber Diceless system."
The possibilities are exciting, and you can go several ways with the same information.
* This may somehow be keeping Benedict from the Throne.
* This may be a tie to Finndo and Osric, as previously mentioned.
* This may be tied to his fight with the Hellmaid Lintra who took his arm, or his previous romantic relationship with her.
* That whole silver mechanical arm business, which was one of the stranger instances of time-manipulation in the series. Who made that arm, and at what cost its use?
//Panjumanju
When this issue came up in my game, the marring of a primal pattern I played off the Blood and the Curse as being separate actions that harmed Amber. So the blood on the pattern was going to cause great whopping damage across many shadows. Corwin's curse gave direction to the damage. Assuming Corwin's curse was meant to be as bad as possible for Eric, the worse thing was for the damage done to the Pattern to open the way to the worst foe for Amber and Eric. So they both are bad, and separately would have both done serious damage, but occurring in such proximity to each other, worked together as a function of magic, rather then being guided by a sentient force. When Corwin is called the 'Opener of the Way' he is just being given credit for the whole mess.
Usually I take the "mark of doom" thing to imply some kind of either curse, or excessively chaotic nature (not behaviour, but rather meaning that his blood is too much of chaos, being of the first generation of offspring) that were he to take the throne he would doom Amber, which is why Benedict is right out of the line of succession.
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Quote from: Sydius Mendoza;630956Found the line in The Hand of Oberon where Dworkin states that Benedict ".. bears the mark of doom"
I have always been curious about this statement. Since it is never addressed beyond this it is totally open to interpretation. Is Benedict blood cursed, or is it something else entirely?
While i never had to flat out tell my players Ben had been cursed I certainly implied it. In play i ran it as an obsession with arms. His centuries of study of warfare and his obsession with it went back into the dim early years of Amber for some reason.
His obsession would lead him to chose violent confrontation rather then extended diplomacy. Not rabidly violent, but more likely to say-"It seems that all this talk will lead no where. I'll put the army into the field."
The willingness to go to war so easily is certainly a path toward doom.
Quote from: Tolknor;636639While i never had to flat out tell my players Ben had been cursed I certainly implied it. In play i ran it as an obsession with arms. His centuries of study of warfare and his obsession with it went back into the dim early years of Amber for some reason.
His obsession would lead him to chose violent confrontation rather then extended diplomacy. Not rabidly violent, but more likely to say-"It seems that all this talk will lead no where. I'll put the army into the field."
The willingness to go to war so easily is certainly a path toward doom.
Except Benedict doesn't really strike me as a bloodthirsty kind of guy; I can see him trying whenever possible to "walk softly and carry a big stick".
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Yea! I sort of see Benedcit as a very non blood thirsty person. He is the old soldier to me, seen too much war and destruction to ever want to make it his first choice.
His Curse I see more as something that says if he takes the Throne Amber will be destroyed or at least ruined. I see as whatever brought on the curse as being that action that you regret your whole life and for Amberites that's a long regretfull path.
MAkes him sort of somber to me and sees his duty to Amber to be part of the price he pays for that action.
Possible actions that induced the curse are varied and I leave it open not wanting to settle until I have to.
1) He betrayed Osiric and Finddo to Oberon and caused their death.
2) He sided with them against Oberon and was left alive as a warning to the rest of the children about trying to take the throne. Maybe why no one did until Oberon was thought long gone.
I am sure I could think of others but for some reason I want to tie it back to his brothers, makes it more somber and sad in some way.
Quote from: RPGPundit;637799Except Benedict doesn't really strike me as a bloodthirsty kind of guy; I can see him trying whenever possible to "walk softly and carry a big stick".
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Oh i agree to be sure. I didn't run him as a raving lunatic either. Just someone obsessed with warfare. I know a guy who retired from the Army as a one-star general. Nice guy. Keeps a clean car. Wife and kids love the heck out of him. I'm a drum and bugle historian myself and a retired history teacher so we get along pretty well. But i can't get him to spend 10 minutes talking about anything other then military history and weaponry. Ask what music he likes and its star spangled banner. Ask why he drives a hummer its because its what he rode in while he was in Iraq.
My point is that Benedict, having seen what not being unprepared can lead to, due to his early experiences and the effects of an ancient curse, has dedicated himself to learning everything there is to learn about Arms.
The zen garden and the orchards are a dead give away that he has an active mind in need of calming.
Now if you want to talk about manic/depressive. lets talk about my Bleys, binging on theater, alcohol, and childish pranks to counterbalance the absolute squashing of his royal ambitions by the choice of the Unicorn! oooo new thread..
by&by.. I'm a Teddy fan of course. Have to admire someone so willing to be themselves regardless of fame or scorn.
Quote from: RPGPundit;637799Except Benedict doesn't really strike me as a bloodthirsty kind of guy; I can see him trying whenever possible to "walk softly and carry a big stick".
Me too...
And yet, he's the guy who's spent ages becoming the greatest weaponmaster of the universe. And it's greatest general.
In short, his hobby is learning how become better at killing people.
So I can picture him as a sociopath. That'd explain why he's so "cool". I dunno, I think of Dexter passing of as normal despite being a serial killer, and I can see bennie doing just that.
Quote from: Croaker;639043So I can picture him as a sociopath. That'd explain why he's so "cool". I dunno, I think of Dexter passing of as normal despite being a serial killer, and I can see bennie doing just that.
Another thing that occurs to me about Benedict is to consider his archetype. He HAS to be the greatest military man in Shadow if he is to cast shadows that might include Hannibal, Caesar, Tamerlane, Gengis Kahn, and for all we know, Miles Teg and James Tiberius Kirk.
I think that he's meant to represent the Samurai ideal. He's a man of peace, a sophisticated philosopher, that becomes an Absolute Killing Machine when he needs to.
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Quote from: Tolknor;637879Now if you want to talk about manic/depressive. lets talk about my Bleys, binging on theater, alcohol, and childish pranks to counterbalance the absolute squashing of his royal ambitions by the choice of the Unicorn! oooo new thread..
You should start that thread!
Quote from: RPGPundit;640515I think that he's meant to represent the Samurai ideal. He's a man of peace, a sophisticated philosopher, that becomes an Absolute Killing Machine when he needs to.
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Ya, i can see that. The whole Code of Bushido thing. He also took over Avalon, Corwin's Camelot. Both speak to chivalry, serenity, honor, and a willingness to deliver wicked levels of violence. I can see his general staff having Lancelot and Musashi. In both my games i had US Grant, Sherman, & McPherson on his staff.
Quote from: RPGPundit;640515I think that he's meant to represent the Samurai ideal. He's a man of peace, a sophisticated philosopher, that becomes an Absolute Killing Machine when he needs to.
Oh, I do agree, but, since this is also what players most probably expect, going for an alternative would throw them of their feet ;)
I find the better way of "throwing" them is to have him be all man-of-peace, or elegant genteel killing machine 99% of the time, unless something happens to bring out the Chaos in his nature, the part that he constantly tries to control, because if that comes out he becomes a creature of almost divine levels of bloodlust.
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Well, this still seems like something people could expect from benedict, at least most of the times. You'd have to make him bloodthirsty and agressive to change that, which is not that different from a psychopath.
If you want, my problem is that most themes tends to make him a "good guy", protector of amber and all, which I find boring compared to what we may see in other amberites.
Having him as a villain, having him as insane, is, IMO, far less cliche than whatever variation of the zen warrior/protector theme
Quote from: Croaker;642810Well, this still seems like something people could expect from benedict, at least most of the times. You'd have to make him bloodthirsty and agressive to change that, which is not that different from a psychopath.
If you want, my problem is that most themes tends to make him a "good guy", protector of amber and all, which I find boring compared to what we may see in other amberites.
Having him as a villain, having him as insane, is, IMO, far less cliche than whatever variation of the zen warrior/protector theme
I mean, that's fine, sure; but the reason that its "less cliche" is because its in no way supported by the text of the stories. You get that right?
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Quote from: RPGPundit;643556I mean, that's fine, sure; but the reason that its "less cliche" is because its in no way supported by the text of the stories. You get that right?
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Could be a nice campaign, tense, trying to figure out why Benedict went nuts while trying to keep him from tearing the whole place down.
I keep killing him off, though once they managed to bring him back despite being turned into glass and shattered into thousands of pieces.
Next time I'll probably just eliminate him pre-game.
Canonical Benny is just too damned good. Crazy Benny is just too damned badass.
Quote from: RPGPundit;643556I mean, that's fine, sure; but the reason that its "less cliche" is because its in no way supported by the text of the stories. You get that right?
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I disagree.
Take, again, Dexter. His collegues have a given vision of him. None suspect him to be a serial killer, and if you listened to them about him, you'd get a quite different impression. And he keeps a tight leash on himself, something one can easily compare to Benedict's discipline.
The fact that his cool and collected facade could be just that, a facade, does in no way contradict the books. After all, as the greatest warrior in the universe, this is also a guy whose idea of a pastime includes killing people, both up close and with armies. I do not see this as very sane.
Hell, I fail to see how this can be taken as "not supported by the text", and thus not okay, when people can rewrite Amber so that Brand is the good guy, or any other drastic change, without people having any problem with this. We've had conversations in which almost any amberite was cast in variable light, yet this shouldn't extand to benny?
IMO, the "problem" is simple: Benedict, even more than any other Amberite, is
cool, and benefits from that whole "lone samurai" image. So people, myself included, are loathe to make him something else. I do not think this sacralization is a good thing, and was glad too see that people could have an "evil" and insane benedict, even if it's just a shadow.
Here I have to disagree with Benedict being "Cool". The reason being that he loses it and tries to kill Corwin for killing his servants In the first series. I sight this example of when the Player's / Elder's attributes don't function fully. I see his anger as why he lost against Corwin near the black road. Not only did Corwin know something he didn't but he was to mad to use his Warfare to its fullest.
I see Elders as the greek god like being powerful but so humanly flawed in an emotional way. Else it makes portraying them way to hard.
Now Benedict as a serial killer I could see but what would be the challenge to him in doing so?
Too easy :)
This debate has taken a somewhat subjective turn. For me it all rests on the following. Paraphrasing here, so let's not get hung up on exact wording
"Benedict could be just as mean and nasty as the rest of us when he wanted to be. More so"
In this one statement Corwin tells us that although Benedict may be the stalwart General/Honorable warrior type, the capacity for him to be every bit as malicious/cruel/and down right evil as his brothers is still there. He maintains a demeanor so disciplined and militaristic (side note, IMC Julian emulates this as a form of older brother "hero worship") that it is easy to forget that he may not have always been this way. This may be the result of centuries of military service and life experience.
Quote from: RPGPundit;643556I mean, that's fine, sure; but the reason that its "less cliche" is because its in no way supported by the text of the stories.
The First Chronicles of Amber are demonstrably Unreliable Narrator - a narrator who tells you up front he's lying to you. Combined with Zelazny's talent for writing detail through implication, to say that just about anything is or is not supported by the text is largely pointless.
(Here, I'll thread derail by pointing out that Wujcik's vision of the Scions of Amber as superpowered demigods is likewise in no way supported by the text of the stories, and is much more problematic in play).
Quote from: Croaker;644053I disagree.
Take, again, Dexter. His collegues have a given vision of him. None suspect him to be a serial killer, and if you listened to them about him, you'd get a quite different impression. And he keeps a tight leash on himself, something one can easily compare to Benedict's discipline.
The fact that his cool and collected facade could be just that, a facade, does in no way contradict the books. After all, as the greatest warrior in the universe, this is also a guy whose idea of a pastime includes killing people, both up close and with armies. I do not see this as very sane.
Hell, I fail to see how this can be taken as "not supported by the text", and thus not okay, when people can rewrite Amber so that Brand is the good guy, or any other drastic change, without people having any problem with this. We've had conversations in which almost any amberite was cast in variable light, yet this shouldn't extand to benny?
IMO, the "problem" is simple: Benedict, even more than any other Amberite, is cool, and benefits from that whole "lone samurai" image. So people, myself included, are loathe to make him something else. I do not think this sacralization is a good thing, and was glad too see that people could have an "evil" and insane benedict, even if it's just a shadow.
When I say "not supported by the text", I mean that if you want to portray Benedict as a batshit psycho-killer, that's not the impression we get from any of the descriptions of him, or encounters with him in the novels.
Now, if what you want to do is have some kind of surprise-reveal, where what you have is the typical silent stoic Benedict only it turns out that he has actually been planning to Kill All Humans from the start; or that he's gone insane but has been hiding it and is secretly murdering the rest of his family one by one; that could be awesome.
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Quote from: Sydius Mendoza;644143(side note, IMC Julian emulates this as a form of older brother "hero worship")
In my games, Julian is the guy who tries to act like he's Benedict but he just can't pull it off; because he lacks any of the real power to back it up, because no one takes him seriously, and because he doesn't have the same kind of stoic self-control; he tries to act like he does but then has a hissy-fit at the slightest provocation.
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I ran Julian as a falling into a religious fervor after a meeting with the Unicorn. Like a Paladin for the Church of Amber, but a flawed one in that he had the same ability to be hard and cruel as he did before. But since even in the thick of things he supported Amber he still became something of an Idol for the religious in Amber. The players in my game also had a interesting time dealing with some of Julian's Amber Cultists as they attempted to defect from Chaos to Amber.
Quote from: Tolknor;645554I ran Julian as a falling into a religious fervor after a meeting with the Unicorn. Like a Paladin for the Church of Amber, but a flawed one in that he had the same ability to be hard and cruel as he did before. But since even in the thick of things he supported Amber he still became something of an Idol for the religious in Amber. The players in my game also had a interesting time dealing with some of Julian's Amber Cultists as they attempted to defect from Chaos to Amber.
That's funny; for me Gerard is the religious one. Julian will only ever use religion if it suits whatever he wants at the time, in the best style of the most hypocritical Tv-conservative sophist.
Quote from: RPGPundit;647144That's funny; for me Gerard is the religious one. Julian will only ever use religion if it suits whatever he wants at the time, in the best style of the most hypocritical Tv-conservative sophist.
I ran Gerard as being faithful, a reasonably honest son of the Church as it was. Julian i ran as fanatical, the fanaticism of the convert.
No zealot like a convert. Guilty about his past, feeling freshly forgiven, a born again Unicornist! Of course his faith was sorely tested and he occasionally needed forgiveness as well as a good slap in the gob. Amber Cultists from Chaos hunting PCs who were not following Julian's brand of fanatic Unicornism made Julian particularly tense.