Randomizing NPCs

[belabor]

Question followed by answers.

[Moracai]

Do you think it could work? Or do you think it would break the system?

Revealing the system you are thinking about for this method would be helpful.

[belabor]

XdY roll for each attribute. I'm not sure if the specific formula matters and I would likely change it for another campaign anyway.

[Bren]

Never mind

[Panjumanju]

It can work, but probably shouldn't, not from a mechanical perspective as much as it would clash with the system expectation that there is no random factor. To introduce a random element also introduces an arbitrary element. Everything in the game should, to outward appearances, have meaning.

Honestly I would think it would be easier just to, before-hand fill a page with name, psyche, etc in colums, fill in 30 NPCs and check mark them as you go.

Were you going to just generate the points with dice rolls, then look up the ranks on the PC ladder, or just roll a dice for rank, 1d6 - 1, oh look they're first in Strength?

My main problem with this is that it makes everything else less meaningful. Threats to PCs can be know or unknown, but if they're scattered randomly everywhere, then the universe be crazy and I don't care anymore.

Other games do that better. Let other games do that.

//Panjumanju

[finarvyn]

It can work, but probably shouldn't, not from a mechanical perspective as much as it would clash with the system expectation that there is no random factor. To introduce a random element also introduces an arbitrary element. Everything in the game should, to outward appearances, have meaning.

Agreed. While some NPCs might honestly be random folk, most NPCs in an Amber-style game tend to have a purpose and if so they ought not be random.

[belabor]

Honestly I would think it would be easier just to, before-hand fill a page with name, psyche, etc in colums, fill in 30 NPCs and check mark them as you go.

How would just deciding those numbers not be arbitrary, as opposed to an impartial roll of dice?

There's really nothing in the system that gives concrete basis for making such decisions, unless I start thinking in terms of which PCs should by default be surpassed by this NPC, or in terms of what should happen in my story and how to mechanically ensure that it does. Which I don't think I should ever be doing as the GM. Why would I even want to lay the ground for specific outcomes?

When using canon NPCs I'm choosing one version over the others based on theme and meaning, and then I have a set of numbers that somebody else arbitrarily written on paper for me. I don't normally look at the numbers before I choose between Corwin - Champion of Amber or Corwin - Sorcerer of Avalon. I choose whichever better fits the setting of this particular game, and then I run the game to see what happens, trying not to formulate any conclusions upfront.

When creating my own NPCs for a game I don't see much meaning in the difference between 5 or 53 points, or between 30 and 31. Those numbers do not even represent any specific capability (as in "30: can bend iron, 31: can bend steel") until I decide what they represent. It's all relative to PC power, and therefore rather arbitrary, and certainly less than impartial, even if unconsciously so.

Also, consider the "Zelazny as GM" model. As far as I know Zelazny used to come up with stuff as he went, so I imagine when characters first appeared he rarely knew their specific strengths and weaknesses or overarching purpose. Perhaps in cases like Benedict's Warfare or Gerard's Strenght he knew that upfront, as he (arbitrarily) introduced those as best in their field. But most of the time, I don't think so. I think most of the time capabilities of his characters became apparent only as they started doing or considering things, and it's fairly possible Zelazny was making those decisions on the spot, if not randomly then often incidentally.

My point is, I don't quite see how this can not be done arbitrarily within the framework of this system.

Were you going to just generate the points with dice rolls, then look up the ranks on the PC ladder, or just roll a dice for rank, 1d6 - 1, oh look they're first in Strength?

I was thinking the former.

[jibbajibba]

It would work.

However.....

For at least some of your Core NPCs I would include them in the auction so that they feel more part of the world.

Amberites and their antagonists are often better if they follow some kind of archetype.
The idea behind this is that all those mythic archetypes we hear so much about, The Strong Silent Monk, the Dashing Blade, the  Cowardly Trickster are all shadows of aspects of the Amberites themselves.

Therefore if you do this and end up with a lot of bland faceless types you need to imbue them with some sort of flavor. They need to "pop" and have their own feel.

[Panjumanju]

My point is, I don't quite see how this can not be done arbitrarily within the framework of this system.

I'm going to just answer this because I think it ultimately answers all the questions you posed.

The point of the structure of Amber Diceless is that numbers are not random; the sense of mystery that comes to players in other RPGs from random rolls, in Amber Dicless comes from the commodity of information. As a GM, you are the only conduit of that information. It is not a shared responsibility between dice and you; it is just yours.

You can have your NPC show up and not know who they are, sure - Zelazny was a gardener of an author, but the most important question about that NPC is WHY they're showing up. As the advice goes in every single Amberzine - no NPC comes out of a vacuum. Nothing is arbitrary because you have to ask the question - WHY. (Are they an assassin, just a humble space weed farmer, captain in the Amber navy, what?) Knowing that should inform your ability to make decisions about their statistics.

As a system Amber Diceless invests you with the authority to make decisions. If you give those decisions over to dice, then your players will lose their working basis, knowing the dice make the decisions and not the GM.

That being said, you can prepare. The first thing I do when preparing an Amber campaign is come up with a list of NPCs and how their motivations conflict. For instance: "Giovanni, spy-master - nominally on long-term assignment from Benedict in shadow (assignment unknown - tie to bigger plot later?) Amber stats, except 2nd in Warfare." The stats are easy because I know why he exists. When I need a spymaster, I have Giovanni. I may not even use him, but I could. There is nothing railroading about this - I'm not sending my players this way or that, I've just populated the universe.

Dice are wholly irrelevant for answering WHY, and very much conflict with the framework of the system as written.

//Panjumanju

[Evermasterx]

I agree with Panjumanju.
In a game like Amber, my opinion is that there is no place for things like random encounters.
I remember Erick saying that in ADRPG there is no need for maps, because the important things are events.
If you create a NPC with a face and a name, you should ask yourself what is his role in the story. You don't necessarlily need to specify his stats. If you think he could be a challenge in combat, do it, and decide if he's better than the players, and why.
My point is: decide what role this NPC has in the story and then think about his stats and powers.
Going back to Erick advices, I remember someone asking him: "Help! I have a player and NPC with the same points in warfare. I can't decide who wins." And Erick answered: "Why are you tormenting yourself? From where this NPC came from? You created! Change his stat."

[jibbajibba]

All good points but ...

You can easily generate an NPC with dice if you like
Say you decided to roll a d 6 for each stat on a 1 its Chaos rank on a 4-6 you give them points based on 5d6 bumping to avoid dups

Giovanni Spy master
S (roll a 2) Amber
E - (roll a 4) 5d6 = 13 puts him at Rank 4
W - (roll a 5) 5d6 = 21 puts him at Rank 3
P - (roll a 1) Chaos rank

Then you colour him

Okay he is a spy master so he has a network of spies
Giovanni's Spies - The Seven (actually the are about 300 of them but always good to confuse the enemy)
Chaos Rank Combat - 1
"Spycraft" - 1
Follow Shadow Trail - 2
Horde - x3
Cost 12 points

Now Giovanni is a spy master so he is smart but his Psyche is weak. He is too smart to let that pass so to tough him up lets give him a ring
Ring
Psychically neutral  - 4
confer Quality - 5
9 points

Lastly we give him Pattern 50 - or at least a partial version thereof.

He comes in at  95 points.

Now we could have rolled him up then decided who he was easy enough.

[Hybridartifacts]

I just stumbled on this - how about a method that actually ties closely into Amber?

Try this:
http://www.fortuneswheel.co.uk/Fortunes-Wheel-Quickstart.pdf
Its free (actually its the sampler for my Kickstarter - link on the website or just search for 'Fortunes wheel rpg')

Amber was a big inspiration for me while I was creating this and I think you will find it a very good system for doing what you want - the free version would give you the bare bones (the actual book will have more). Play around with and see what you think. If you need a deck and dont have one, try using this
http://www.tarotlore.com/tarot-reading/

What it wont do - give you detailed stats like a trad game
What it will do - give you a great conceptual overview for a character and their background, motivations, people in their lives and more. It will also give you a basic idea of their abilities/focus based on the four elements and four suits (Swords/Air = mind, Wands/Fire= will, Coins/Earth= body, Cups/Water= soul/emotion.

I think it can be used in to tie in both with the Amber books really well and to the general philosophy of Amber as a game if you want. Its really not prescriptive and doesn't tie you down so much to the sort of fixed sense of stats you find in traditional rpgs.

...and do let me know if it does the trick for you!

[belabor]

Nope, sorry, it does not do the trick. I just need a way to generate four numbers (and I already have my own that takes much less than 110 pages).

[RPGPundit]

I do agree that generally, the game isn't about random generation.

That said, I did incorporate a system using cards for Lords of Olympus.