Martial Arts

[gabriel_ss4u]

I am not looking for word quibbles...
but.....
wouldn't a stat be something that everyone has.... and those are not something everyone would have.. that's why they are called powers and items, right Otha?

Is this just another attempt to classify & categorize everything?

I agree that these are things that help make the characters more diverse, (if that's what you were getting at), but not everything has to be so defined... have you ever heard of the principle of 'the uncarved block'?

[RPGPundit]

In a way, Otha is right. I think that both the Stats and the Powers/items have to be looked at as "playing pieces".
Each have different moves you can do, and work in different ways to counteract stuff the other person can do.

Amber run rightly is like a very free flowing game of chess, with much more room for creative maneuvering.

RPGPundit

[Fightzombies]

Personally, I've always hated the idea that martial arts knowledge and skill are affected by Strength.  Your chance to strike someone, with a fist, a spoon, a sword, or a revolver, is all governed by Warfare.

Gerard doesn't suddenly become faster or more tactical than Benedict when fisticuffs come into play.  Instead, Gerard can take more blows and dish out way more damage if a punch connects.  But it doesn't make him any more likely to hit.

At least that's how I've always played.

[jibbajibba]

Something just occured to me.

Some people seem disturbed by the possibility of hand to hand being dependant on strength.
I just wanted to point out that there are an awful lot of RPGs out there where one can be supremely skilled at a weapon, and utterly useless in a HtH fighting, without this disturbing us. Why would this be so different in Amber?

Because in Amber there is no choice. As written you can not be an expert at Martial arts unless you are also very strong. I can not, of the top of my head, think of a single other role playing game where this is the case. The same is true of the combination of combat skill and military tactics.

In one of the David Gemmel series (they all merge into one so identifying the actual series evades me) there is a general. He has conquered the known world with his army and vastly superior knowledge of tactics and strategy. He also has absolutely no knowledge of combat, wears armour only because of the psychological effect it has on his men and in a sword fight would be beaten by an agressive 4 year old. Great character. Could not exist in the Amberverse as defined in the core rules.

Any rule which limits the role play opportunities of a game is a bad rule. Imagine a superhero game in which any character with super strength had to be covered in orange rocks, or any character with invisibility power had to wear a lycra body suit and look like Jessica Alba (lets just think about that for a moment longer ...) . You just wouldn't do it.
The only reason this rule exists is because in the Amber novels the local expert in hand to hand combat just happens to be the strongest guy around as well.
It does make Strength a more desired stat and helps to balance out the dominance of Warfare and Psyche but there are better ways of doing this even if they do add to the game's complexity.
I still think Ortha's idea of letting the players determine which stats they want to bid for is excellent. I probably would not allow them to throw the powers in there as well but I can see that that woudl be an option for some GMs.

[Croaker]

Sure, but then, I fail to see why some people seem to be so bothered by the grouping of martial arts and physical prowess while the grouping of both ranged and close weapons, leadership and tactics under a single attribute doesn't bother them.
Both are "illogical", but if one finds this grouping OK for warfare, I don't think he should be bothered by a similar grouping for Strength. Suspension of disbelief and all that

[gabriel_ss4u]

Both good points....

I don't 'rearrange' the strength system myself unless I have a player that is fighting for #1 Str. and defines his PC as a martial artist type.
Then I fit it in or start to tayloring.

Whatever works for your campaign, ya know.
But i don't think anyone is 'scared' to re-work the attributes definition some.
But i do think some people may consider it sacrilege.

I don't mess with it unless it is important in my campaign.

[jibbajibba]

Sure, but then, I fail to see why some people seem to be so bothered by the grouping of martial arts and physical prowess while the grouping of both ranged and close weapons, leadership and tactics under a single attribute doesn't bother them.
Both are "illogical", but if one finds this grouping OK for warfare, I don't think he should be bothered by a similar grouping for Strength. Suspension of disbelief and all that

That bothers me as much if not more to be honest... but was not a topic in this thread :-) The idea of Napoeon beating Athos in a sword fight is even worse than Arnie beating up Bruce Lee in the ring.

Politics (includes your political influence in Amber or Chaos and Leadership)
Tactics/Strategy (lets call it Warfare)
Melee Combat (armed and unarmed)
Ranged Combat (we want to stop it getting too specific so will include ancient and modern lets cal it Accuracy)
Strength (will include the ability to take hits and dish em out)
Psyche
Endurance

In my last Campaign I added Political influence as a stat it worked very well.

With these 6 stats you immediately remove the risk of the combat master that bids high in once stat and gets all the wonders of Warfare. Therefore you are balancing the weakness of strength compared to warfare by making warfare more diverse.
The risk is Psyche stands out as a very strong stat so you might need to weaken it by removing some of its innate strengths that to be honest I don't think anyone is too keen on (such as the ability to control lower ranked Psyches by direct mind control etc) . That way Psyche is only innately strong as a defense and needs a power to become offensive. A power costs points so there is a game balance being struck.

And before someone says but it would take so long to get the characters created.. these are Amber characters I expect people to spend at least a week on character generation so a couple of additional auctions is neither here nor there.

[Arref]

Politics
Warfare
Melee
Accuracy
Strength
Psyche
Endurance

So would these attributes allow a high Politics PC to arrange for it to be social suicide for a Melee PC to attack them?

Would a high Warfare PC be able to plan around being engaged by a Psyche PC attack?

Would a high Accuracy PC be able to sniper the Strength PC?

Does Endurance break ties between two Accuracy PCs in a close battle?

[jibbajibba]

So would these attributes allow a high Politics PC to arrange for it to be social suicide for a Melee PC to attack them?

Would a high Warfare PC be able to plan around being engaged by a Psyche PC attack?

Would a high Accuracy PC be able to sniper the Strength PC?

Does Endurance break ties between two Accuracy PCs in a close battle?

:-)

Yes - but you woudl need to role play it.
Tricky - definitely need to roleplay that one and it would depend on their knowledge of the psychic arts.
Yes
Well maybe you have seen Enemy at the Gates right. Endurance will certainly determine how long you can sit in that tree for until the mark turns up.

:-)

[PantherShade]

Okay, I've read through the discussion, and can see value in the different arguments.  However, I noticed that one thing is lacking.

According to the normal rules, I'd resolve an unarmed physical combat using Strength, and I'd resolve an armed physical combat using Warfare.  However, what do you do when one of the combatants is armed and the other is unarmed?

Warfare vs Strength?
Warfare vs Average (Warfare+Strength)?
Warfare vs Warfare anyway?

I'd like to point out that martial artists routinely train to deal with an armed attacker and prevail.  (Imagine an unarmed Bruce Lee squaring off against an armed Sun Tsu.)


As an example, let's say that an unarmed Corwin has a face-off against a knife-wielding Caine.  Having a weapon, Caine is obviously using his Warfare. Because he's unarmed, does Corwin use his Strength (normal rules) against Caine's Warfare?  Or, does this type of martial arts prowess fall between the categories, making Corwin average them?  Or, is Corwin's martial arts ability solely represented by an extension of his Warfare?  Or, does Corwin get to choose his attribute?

If Corwin uses only his Strength to represent a prowess with martial arts, then does that mean Gerard might be able to beat Benedict as long as he drops his own sword?

If Corwin uses an average of his Warfare plus his Strength, then wouldn't Gerard be better off leaving his sword at home, since his Strength is so much higher than his Warfare?

If Corwin only his Warfare to represent a prowess with martial arts, then would Benedict beat Gerard while both were unarmed?

If Corwin gets to choose, then could Benedict use his Warfare (martial arts) to fight Gerard's Strength (wrestling) in an unarmed combat?


I'm inclined to stick with the rules as written, but I have to account for when a switch from Warfare to Strength might occur (if it does).

If Gerard can switch to Strength whenever he likes, then why would he ever carry a sword?  If he was close enough to use a sword, then he'd be better off using his Strength instead of Warfare.  Then, it would be a battle between Benedict's Warfare and Gerard's Strength.  (Although interesting, it begs the question of why Gerard bothers with a sword at all.)

If Gerard can't switch to Strength, then how would Gerard ever be able to grab Benedict?  If he can never grab Benedict, then Warfare always beats Strength, which will throw off the balance of Attributes.

If Gerard can switch to Strength, but has to do switch the entire fight to Strength, then under what circumstances would he be able to do so?  What type of thing can Gerard do to get a hold on Benedict and trandform the fight from Warfare to Strength?


I have no intention of adding new attributes.  My players have enough things on which to spend points already, and I think the balance between Attributes and Powers works out well enough now.  However, the ability to switch a fight to play to your strengths makes a lot of sense.  I'm hopig for a little guidance on this particular situation, since I know that it'll be the most prevalent.

Thanks!  :hehe:

[Croaker]

it begs the question of why Gerard bothers with a sword at all

Erick said something about swords in the Amber DRPG.
It keeps things at bay.
Against an Alien, even if you're strong enough to punch through him, you'd get burned by its acid blood. Not with a sword.

Moreso, a sword cuts things, which your fits don't. It also lets you do more damage just by swinging. Against a rock-hard opponent, gerard and his sword might do enough damage to win, while gerard and his fists wouldn't.

[Nihilistic Mind]

If Gerard can switch to Strength, but has to do switch the entire fight to Strength, then under what circumstances would he be able to do so?  What type of thing can Gerard do to get a hold on Benedict and trandform the fight from Warfare to Strength?

I'd say Gerard would have to take a hit from Benedict's sword... He might not want to do that as it would prove deadly, but if he was desperate enough, Gerard would probably take a near mortal wound and try to snap Benedict's neck before he himself died...

That's what I usually do when someone wants to switch to strength: if the PC is at a disadvantage with warfare, I let the PC choose whether or not they take a hit. The severity of the hit will depend on the rank of the PC in comparison to his opponent. Once the PC has taken the hit, I let them have the lead in the subsequent strength-based assault, until the wound overcomes the PCs endurance or the opponent gets a hold of the situation (assuming they also have a superior rank in Strength).

So, yeah, for the purposes of unarmed combat, I use Strength. I think the problem we have with strength is its name. Warfare seems to include so much while Strength sounds like simply raw physical power. Strength should technically encompass more than physical, well, strength! Change your understanding of the word and what it means in the game mechanics and you're nearly there...

I really understand RPGPundit's point though. Would Benedict be unstoppable if he cut out his own arm and used it as a weapon, but not if he kept fighting with his fisticuffs intact?

I dunno... maybe that's how he lost his arm in the first place during Corwin's series Not unlike Alita (or Gally or Yoko) in Battle Angel Alita (GUNNM) who used to let her opponents cut her limbs so that she could use them as weapons.  I could see Benedict do that if he were desperate enough.

Play-wise, I don't think it's as simple as considering a penny or his own eyelash an efficient weapon...

As usual, the rules leave the interpretation to the GM (thanks Erick  ) and for my part I use strength for unarmed combat, warfare for armed combat, and I've never encountered a situation where that hasn't worked or seemed unfair so far...

[jibbajibba]

Hi Panther,

Glad you got the link and welcome to the board.

I think your points are totally valid.
I don't think it really works to just say Strength isn't just muscle it's also a&b&c and should be called SHAZAM. The problem is it is also strength and this limits the character options. Your examples are excellent and throw the issue into a clear light.

For all my carping I would usually play martial arts ability to strike as warfare and switch to strength if an opponent managed to get a grip on their opponent. So for me boxing, savate or karate are warfare but wrestling and judo are strength. I knows that leaves holes, normally chin na and aikido sized ones but it plays well to the books.

If Gerard attacked Benedict in my world he would loose. His only chance would be to trick Benedict into a situation where he has a grip on him already. I might decide that if Benedict was not armed his blows would not be hard enough to hurt Gerard overly and the big man could close in but I don't think Strength will protect your eyes, ears or soft dangly bits. I would do warfare to warfare until the guy gets a grip and then str to str.
Yes this makes strength the weakest attribute. It is no arguing you look at the last 10 games that you were involved in and the numbers that came out of the auction. Strength is always the lowest spend.
If you stick to traditional ranks (like Otha I have dropped these in favour of points)  then this actually compensates Strength as you might be 1st rank in Strength for 20 points where as 1st rank in Warfare would be 50 and in Amber terms rank 1 in something equates to rank 1 in something else ... kind of.
I think to sell Strength you need to focus less on the unanrmed combat and think more about how to use Strength in other places. For example I base how much damage you can take on Strength. If you translate Strength to Hit points it gets more attraction from most bidders. Also in combat I would allow the strong guy to play to that. Chuck out the Rapier I'll have a Claymore please or a Broad Axe. When a slight advantage in combat can take off your oponents hand rather than cutting their wrist Strength starts to claw back some of that lost appeal.

[Arref]

Okay, I've read through the discussion, and can see value in the different arguments.  However, I noticed that one thing is lacking.

According to the normal rules, I'd resolve an unarmed physical combat using Strength, and I'd resolve an armed physical combat using Warfare.  However, what do you do when one of the combatants is armed and the other is unarmed?

Warfare vs Strength?
Warfare vs Average (Warfare+Strength)?
Warfare vs Warfare anyway?

I'd like to point out that martial artists routinely train to deal with an armed attacker and prevail.  (Imagine an unarmed Bruce Lee squaring off against an armed Sun Tsu.)

-snip-

I have no intention of adding new attributes.  My players have enough things on which to spend points already, and I think the balance between Attributes and Powers works out well enough now.  However, the ability to switch a fight to play to your strengths makes a lot of sense.  I'm hopig for a little guidance on this particular situation, since I know that it'll be the most prevalent.

From the above I think you are asking for how the rules do it. No new interpretations. No house rules.

Check page 95 in the rules. The section on 'Opportunity' will answer most of your questions. There is a sequence of speed between the Attributes which should be respected in order to answer your examples.

As an example, let's say that an unarmed Corwin has a face-off against a knife-wielding Caine.  Having a weapon, Caine is obviously using his Warfare. Because he's unarmed, does Corwin use his Strength (normal rules) against Caine's Warfare?  Or, does this type of martial arts prowess fall between the categories, making Corwin average them?  Or, is Corwin's martial arts ability solely represented by an extension of his Warfare?  Or, does Corwin get to choose his attribute?

PCs always get to choose their Attribute. But choosing Warfare when unarmed is a poor choice. Yes, when Corwin fights unarmed against Caine's knife, he pits Strength against Warfare. Note page 95, Strength is faster than Warfare and resolves first. So as long as Corwin's Strength is greater than Caine's Warfare, he may win this fight. Corwin may take a lot of damage to do so.

If Corwin uses only his Strength to represent a prowess with martial arts, then does that mean Gerard might be able to beat Benedict as long as he drops his own sword?

That is how Amber plays. Gerard must find a way to get Strength in play if he plans to beat Benedict. Gerard would have to stack the contest indeed to beat Benedict at a Warfare conflict.

If Corwin uses an average of his Warfare plus his Strength, then wouldn't Gerard be better off leaving his sword at home, since his Strength is so much higher than his Warfare?

The rules do not average Attributes.

If Corwin only his Warfare to represent a prowess with martial arts, then would Benedict beat Gerard while both were unarmed?

No. Gerard would win. The rules insist that Strength is martial arts.

If Corwin gets to choose, then could Benedict use his Warfare (martial arts) to fight Gerard's Strength (wrestling) in an unarmed combat?

See above.

I'm inclined to stick with the rules as written, but I have to account for when a switch from Warfare to Strength might occur (if it does).

If Gerard can switch to Strength whenever he likes, then why would he ever carry a sword?  If he was close enough to use a sword, then he'd be better off using his Strength instead of Warfare.  Then, it would be a battle between Benedict's Warfare and Gerard's Strength.  (Although interesting, it begs the question of why Gerard bothers with a sword at all.)

I think there are a thousand reasons why a sword might be a better tool than your fist. That doesn't change the fact that Amber PCs know when to use their best Attribute in the best way.

If Gerard can't switch to Strength, then how would Gerard ever be able to grab Benedict?  If he can never grab Benedict, then Warfare always beats Strength, which will throw off the balance of Attributes.

Switching Attributes is always permitted. Even when it is a poor choice. You are correct, if Gerard can grab Benedict despite a Warfare consequence, then Gerard will probably triumph.

If Gerard can switch to Strength, but has to do switch the entire fight to Strength, then under what circumstances would he be able to do so?  What type of thing can Gerard do to get a hold on Benedict and transform the fight from Warfare to Strength?

There are so many examples and possibilities. Many would depend on why they are fighting (what goals) and where they are fighting (what environ) and who started the fight (what opportunity.)

However, just to suggest one easy example.

A quarrel starts in the castle library between Gerard and Corwin. Benedict separates them with his drawn blade. Gerard is angry that Benedict appears to be taking Corwin's side by preventing Gerard from thrashing Corwin.

So Gerard whirls, grabs a maple table covered with books and papers, and tosses the table at Benedict.

Now Benedict has to make an Attribute choice: use Strength to shove the table aside or Warfare to dodge. Benedict (with 100 Warfare knows Gerard very well) knows that he cannot dodge the table hurled with Gerard's 100 Strength. Likewise a sword is no counter to a table.

Are there ways that Benedict can respond? Of course.
But Gerard has forced a Strength contest.

[PantherShade]

Actually, I think the point of Strength resolving before Warfare solve the problem nicely.  (It's just not presented very well or easy to find.)

If Gerard is close enough to grab Benedict, then he simply does.  Benedict, knowing his own weakness, tries to not be there in the first place.  So, if Gerard flipped out, and Benedict happened to be near, then Gerard can toss Benedict around (Strength vs Strength).

If Benedict isn't right there, then Gerard is going to have to sacrifice a few hits to get close enough.  How many strikes is up to how it's played out, which could determine who wins.  If it's a longer range battle, Gerard would be down before he gets close enough.

So, Gerard would carry a sword for those times he's not close enough. With a sword, he can stave off a hit or two, which could be the matter of winning or losing.

Yeah, that timing resolution works for me.  I hope they make it more prominent if they even come up with that new edition.  Thanks.