Martial Arts

[RPGPundit]

Unarmed Martial Arts, one of the few real stumbling points in the Amber mechanics.  Is it Strength, or is it Warfare?

RPGPundit

[JohnB]

I find there are already a lot of things tied to warfare, so I decided to make martial arts tied to strength purely for play balance purposes.

In the last game I played in, we were using home rules and it was the average of strength and warfare. It worked pretty well.

[Pete]

I still have my book in storage, but I remember the rule was for martial arts, swordfighting, boxing, etc -- anything where there is some space between opponents -- is Warfare's realm.  The moment someone grabs another, Warfare gets thrown out the window and the combat is in Strength's domain.

I'm not particularly keen on this method, but I don't have any strong complaints other than a general "it kind of bothers me" sort of way.

[RPGPundit]

Yes, this makes a lot of sense to me: someone like benedict shouldn't be a freaking ninja with a paperclip in his hand and switch to being a total gimp the second his hands are empty.  He should be able to use his hands as weapon, too, and that's what many martial arts are about.  

But martial arts that are about locks, grappling, wrestling, etc, could be based on strength, as would brute bashing.

RPGPundit

[Yamo]

But martial arts that are about locks, grappling, wrestling, etc, could be based on strength...

Doubtful. This type of fighting actually requires intense practice and (practical, if not medical) knowledge of anatomy.

[finarvyn]

Unarmed Martial Arts, one of the few real stumbling points in the Amber mechanics.  Is it Strength, or is it Warfare?

Strength.

No real debate here, in my opinion, because it's directly mentioned in the ADRP rulebook on page 18 in the section "The Potential of Strength".

1. HAND-TO-HAND SKILL. Aside from sheer physical brawn, Gerard is trained in a wide range of hand-to-hand combat skills.

* It is possible that a single obscure move, from specialized form like Akido or Atemi, might catch him unprepared. However, this willl be a one-time advantage, as Gerard will learn it and compensate for it in all future conflicts.

Erick is directly telling us that martial arts are a function of strength.

[RPGPundit]

Doubtful. This type of fighting actually requires intense practice and (practical, if not medical) knowledge of anatomy.

Are you saying strong people can't be smart? And for that matter, how much of it is really "anatomy" and not just learning how to fight? I mean, the average high school wrestler doesn't have much knowledge of anatomy.

RPGpundit

[Arref]

And for that matter, how much of it is really "anatomy" and not just learning how to fight? I mean, the average high school wrestler doesn't have much knowledge of anatomy.

RPGpundit

We are not comparing the "average high-school wrestler" to the skills and expertise of the blood of Amber are we? At the levels of skill for wrestling in Amber, I can easily understand why anatomy is a knowledge area tied to Strength skills.

Of course, there would be a few such anatomy skills tied to Warfare as well. And Psyche. And Endurance.

The rules are clear: all martial arts are Strength based.

[RPGPundit]

Ok, but Arref, Fin, you guys personally, if you were running an Amber game, and had a confrontation between Benedict and a midlevel player who's obviously got much worse warfare, but much higher strength than Benedict, are you saying that as long as benedict was unarmed and unable to arm himself, he'd be mincemeat?

Does it make sense that the guy who's essentially focused himself on becoming the greatest warrior in the universe would suddenly be completely incompetent with his bare hands, but you give the guy a pencil or a gumball or a flower or an incense stick to wield, and suddenly he's an unstoppable killing machine?

I'd love to hear Erick's perspective on this, hopefully he'll pop by sometime soon.

RPGPundit

[finarvyn]

A solid point, Pundit, and one which I will try to address in a "devil's advocate" role without 100% agreement with myself (if that makes any sense.)

Clearly the problem is that the ADRP rules system has been simplified to make play run smoothly. With only 4 key attributes to play with, there are potential flaws which can be exploited if one thinks about it hard enough. Warfare, for example, is a combination of leadership and tactical vision as well as actual weapon skill -- would this imply that a great planner is automatically great with a weapon? The rules suggest this, only the assumption here is probably that each person builds strengths and weaknesses into the character background.

if you were running an Amber game, and had a confrontation between Benedict and a midlevel player who's obviously got much worse warfare, but much higher strength than Benedict, are you saying that as long as benedict was unarmed and unable to arm himself, he'd be mincemeat?

Can Benedict make use of an improvised weapon? A candlestick holder, a letter opener, a shoelace? If Benedict was in a situation where he had absolutly no access to a weapon, he should worry if the midlevel character can get his hands on Benedict. Any chance that Benedict's Warfare might have allowed him to plan ahead and hide a dagger on his person?

By the way, "I" am not suggesting this at all -- the ADRP rulebook suggests this. If Benedict wanted to do martial arts, he should have put more points into strength.

Does it make sense that the guy who's essentially focused himself on becoming the greatest warrior in the universe would suddenly be completely incompetent with his bare hands, but you give the guy a pencil or a gumball or a flower or an incense stick to wield, and suddenly he's an unstoppable killing machine?

No, but I think from a game balance perspective it might be the best way to interpret the rule. (I particularly like the mental image of Benedict attacking someone with a gumball.)

[Otha]

"Martial Arts" should be warfare, but once someone has a grip on you, it's strength.

[Arref]

Finn's answer covers my response pretty well.

Ok, but Arref, Fin, you guys personally, if you were running an Amber game, and had a confrontation between Benedict and a midlevel player who's obviously got much worse warfare, but much higher strength than Benedict, are you saying that as long as benedict was unarmed and unable to arm himself, he'd be mincemeat?

Does it make sense that the guy who's essentially focused himself on becoming the greatest warrior in the universe would suddenly be completely incompetent with his bare hands, but you give the guy a pencil or a gumball or a flower or an incense stick to wield, and suddenly he's an unstoppable killing machine?

RPGPundit

To respond as simply as you pose the question: yes. That's exactly correct. PC with higher Strength wins over Benedict.

To respond with "real game experience": it is Extremely Unlikely that Benedict will ever be in a situation where there is not a weapon within reach, even if he is naked.

If Benedict thinks he can win a fight bare-handed with a mid-level PC, I bet it turns out he is right, or the fight will be so close and costly to both folks that everyone will talk about it for years. I see nothing out-of-canon with Benedict losing a barehanded contest. Zelazny shows him losing a sword fight.

I could go on about how Very Cool such a confrontation could be for Player and lurkers but I'll stick to topic.

[RPGPundit]

Ok, so here's a question: If benedict rips out one of his eyelashes, suddenly he's armed, and will go from being an invalid to being an unstoppable killing machine, right? Even though the "weapon" he's using was once part of his body.  I mean, fuck, what's seriously being suggested here is that if Benedict is fighting barehanded he will have less of a chance of winning than if he somehow managed to bite off his own hand and then use that severed hand as a weapon.

RPGPundit

edit to add: Of course, he wouldn't be able to bite off his own hand, because his strength sucks ass.

[SunBoy]

Random's "ass-sucking" strenght is enough to lift half a car, so I would assume Benedict can without major problems chop off any part of his anatomy. But, back to the disscussion, the part about "being momentarily surprised by some weird Aikido maneuver" clearly shows that Warfare have some say in unarmed conflicts, too. The "Warfare until grappled" way is a good way to go, I think. In the "Showdown between amberites" section, Erick says that Benedict would beat Gerard because "his greater Warfare would make it impossible to the stronger Gerry to put his hands on him", so there's some function of Warfare, too.
But I would say that Warfare, Strenght and Endurance all should have to be taken in account. The average makes good sense, too, but I think it should be a little more "complicated" that simple maths. Every case is different, IMO, and if at any given time someone gets to start a grapple, then it would come down to pure Strenght.

[Arref]

I mean, fuck, what's seriously being suggested here is that if Benedict is fighting barehanded he will have less of a chance of winning than if he somehow managed to bite off his own hand and then use that severed hand as a weapon.

LOL

Um, yes, that is what you are suggesting is Benedict's imaginative response in your campaign.

IMC, I was suggesting that Benedict would almost always have a weapon and the young Strength-master would have to get past that weapon (and pay that price) to get a Strength conflict to happen. And then Benedict would lose to superior Strength for his error.
If he made such an error.
No amberite is infallible.
Not even Oberon.