Logrusless campaign

[othello]

Just curious has anyone run a game where the was no logrus in the courts of chaos?I ask because some people like the Corwin saga better than the Merlin saga.If you have what other power or powers took its place?

[Panjumanju]

Just curious has anyone run a game where the was no logrus in the courts of chaos?I ask because some people like the Corwin saga better than the Merlin saga.If you have what other power or powers took its place?

You certainly don't need anything to replace the Logrus. The first game I ran, nobody happened to choose it. Game ran just fine.

//Panjumanju

[daniel_ream]

Nearly all of the Amber games I've run have been Amber-centric (or based in Corwin's Pattern universe).  So it doesn't come up very often.

You need not really replace the Logrus with anything; when I read the first Chronicles my impression was that there were a small number of scions of Amber[1] that were very powerful, and a very large number of Lords of Chaos that were individually much weaker.  I'd be inclined to give them lots of Shapeshifting tricks and Hordes of riding warbeasts and hellhounds and such.  Maybe give them some unique Sorcery that's more powerful the farther away in Shadow from Amber you are.  Make them dangerous in numbers and deep in Shadow, less so one-on-one and close to home.




[1] I categorically refuse to use the word "Amberite".  It sounds like a cheap Shopping Channel precious stone knockoff.

[Brent Not Broken]

I think that cutting out the Logrus can drastically change the feel of the universe, but maybe that's exactly what you need. Instead of a universe that's a twanging plucked string stretched between two opposite metaphysical poles, you have a universe that's the weird, mysterious, creepy darkness surrounding a single, central campfire. There's lots to be said for either way.

I think the main effect of Logrus-removal is that Chaosians get more mysterious. Odds are, the Courts are out there and most people in Amber know that Chaos is a threat, but now it's a threat that's got a big question mark over it, because nobody knows how Chaos works or what Chaosians can do or what their power is based on.

If you only really care about the Corwin books, there's really not much evidence that anybody in Amber (except maybe Dworkin) has a working knowledge of Chaos. So when Chaos comes a-knocking at the door, it's scary-- they're a bogeyman that Amber doesn't know how to combat. And all the big metaphysical forces that get messed around with and cause problems in those books (the Primal Pattern, the Jewel) are associated with Amber and wielded by Amber's nobility, so you get this wonderful sense of hubris and betrayal and tragic downfall. Chaos is just a scapegoat; Amber did this to themselves.

With the Logrus, Amber and Chaos are on equalish footing. It's the Cold War.

Without the Logrus, Amber is civilization and Chaos is unknowable barbarians. It's the Teutons marching on the Roman republic, and all those ancient romans being all: who the hell ARE these guys?

[othello]

I want to say thank you to everyone for there comments and ideas.I just wanted to give i guess more mystery and scariness to the courts.Everyone knows what the logrus can do so thats why I thought about replacing the logrus with another power or combonation of powers so when the players do run into a lord of chaos they wont be oh i know what he can do i want them to be surprised and a little scared kind of like in the corwins books.Hope this makes sense

[daniel_ream]

Well, othello, that's exactly what you should be doing as a good GM.  One big problem with setting a campaign in a licensed universe - any licensed universe - is that the players are going to already know the Big Secrets.  You pretty much need to change things around if you want to engender any sense of mystery or revelation in your campaign.

For that matter, why even bother with the Courts of Chaos at all, if you're sticking to the Corwin Chronicles?  Why not stat up the Moonriders out of Ghenesh and use them as the Big Bad?

[othello]

I like your suggestion Daniel.I might have to do that.just up there stats like you said and make them more sneaky,having them learned from there previous mistakes make them more cautious in there plans for amber

[RPGPundit]

I've never felt the need to avoid using Logrus, but if you really want to, and you want to try to stay somewhat true to what you see in the Corwin series of books alone, I would say that Chaos Lords all have shapeshifting, they also have some ability to move through shadow along dark roads (possibly only after Corwin's bloodcurse), and possibly some kind of inherent corrupting effect in shadow.

Very likely lots of sorcery and magic items, too.

RPGPundit

[Panjumanju]

Reading RPGPundit's reply, I realise now I misinterpreted the OP.

OP, I thought you were just talking about none of the players choosing Pattern, not actually having a Courts of Chaos without Logrus. That's my mistake.

I don't think it should matter how well liked or not well liked the Merlin cycle is, the Amber Diceless Roleplaying game works as a roleplaying game. The Courts and Logrus are still great ideas. In fact, I would go as far as to say that if the books were never written, it would still be as great of a roleplaying game. So, I think you should respect the internal consistency of the RPG at least, if you want it to function as intended.

//Panjumanju

[RPGPundit]

I would absolutely agree; the Amber RPG is in effect its own unique version of the Amber universe.  The only "alternate" Amber universe actually endorsed by Zelazny at that.

RPGPundit

[jibbajibba]

The Logrus in the Merlin Cycle does not fit with any Chaos Power in the Corwin series of books.

If The Courts were populated with power munkins like Mandor and Merlin then the Amber of Eric would have been a sitting duck.

On this basis I think a nebulous Courts for a first series setting is a great idea.

I would actually disagree with Panjumanju, respectfully of course, as I think the ADRPG is such a good RPG that you don't need to worry about what the Courts are like. I think you can change almost everything so long as you keep Amber itself as the core.

You can discard the Courts entirely, you can play them Corwin Chronicles style, you can make them a realm of uberdemons that use souls from the multiverse as a currency of exchange or you can fill them with Faey folks. The Game will still run fine.

You need
Amber - PCs linked by a strong bond (family) but who are in tension as opposed to full co-operation
Powers - the PCs need to have powers above normal folks, a way to manipulate reality (Pattern) is pretty much essential
The Other - you need a force outside of the control of Amber which threatens it. Without this threat its hard to get a campaing driver going. Now the threat might end up being one of the PCs but you need an Other.

If you have those three elements you can run an Amber game.

[warp9]

The Logrus in the Merlin Cycle does not fit with any Chaos Power in the Corwin series of books.

If The Courts were populated with power munkins like Mandor and Merlin then the Amber of Eric would have been a sitting duck.

On this basis I think a nebulous Courts for a first series setting is a great idea.

I could get behind that idea too.

[RPGPundit]

I think its pretty clear, though, that guys like Mandor (and later, merlin) are very powerful exceptions in the courts.

RPGPundit

[jibbajibba]

I think its pretty clear, though, that guys like Mandor (and later, merlin) are very powerful exceptions in the courts.

RPGPundit

I think its pretty clear, though, that guys like Mandor (and later, merlin) are very powerful exceptions in the courts.

RPGPundit

I don't think that comes across in the 2nd series to be honest.

There is an explicit comment that every Chaos House has a Mandor at work behind the scenes and there are an awful lot of Chaos Houses.

Looking at numbers alone there are 2 dozen Amberites and hundreds of Chaosites. Even if only 1 in 10 chaosites were close to Mandor or Dara or Merlin, Or Shuhy, or Swayvil they would still boast tripple the number of Amberites ....

I think the first Series is kind of saying that there was this kingdom of powerful beings a step above the Demons of the Pit who rules Chaos, one of them worked out how to mould shadow and through drawing the Pattern created a new reality. His offspring have the abiliy to control this reality, although the majority don't really understand it, and through this ability they have great power.
Now in the 2nd series we see that the elite of Chaos can control that reality as well. Now for me at that point the thing that make Amber special and kept it safe no longer exists, Mandor can travel through shadow at will, what would Pattern actually give him.
When I put the Courts into play I usually play them like medieval China in that they are more more concerned about internal politics than they are about Amber

[RPGPundit]

Generally, I do that as well. Also, I think that the chaosians are limited by their own social structures and rules, they're more rigid than the Amberites in these things, and thus they end up getting their asses kicked by their dirty-fighting country-cousins.
 
And as for comparative power; I think that the message that must be taken from the game setting if it is accommodating the events of the novels is that Pattern kicks Logrus' ass as a power.  The Courts only stood a chance because of their sheer numbers, the Amberite's own infighting and the fact that they had a blood curse putting wind in their sails in a big way.  When the blood curse turned against them, they were screwed.

RPGPundit