Shadow Magic & Real Magic

[sir brad]

Say how do you run the difference between "Real Magic" Sorcery, Coungeration, Power-words and the magic native to a Shadow.

do you charge for something that won't carry over in to shadow and the real places? personally I just charge the Characters "Shadow Time", or not even that if they spend points on the Shadow. Real Magic Trumps Shadow Magic and you can negate against it just by pulling up the Pattern.

[finarvyn]

If magic (or any other power) doesn't transfer from shadow to shadow, its value is very limited in an Amber campaign. I tend to charge but at a very minimal rate. (I hate to give out any freebies.)

[Artifacts of Amber]

to me there are different levels of magic.

Magic in a shadow that the dwellers can use, so a D&D wizard has x magic which can be stopped negated shut down by most primal powers.

Then shadow magic in the Game book which is magic that works in any shadow but only within that shadow. Slightly more powerful but still not able to effect people with a defense up but otherwise would hurt primal creatures (Chaosians/Amberites etc.)

Then Shadow Magic Backed by a primal power which is real magic that effects all things. Much like Merlin's, and Mandor's Magic. Backed by Logrus in that case. Though more examples exist in the second series. This is magic a Primal defense (Such as calling up the Pattern) may or may not stop dependent on Psyche and other attributes.

Cost structure in my game is

5
15
25

For them in that order.

Just my thoughts

[Taewakan]

Real Sorcery = 15 points. Real Conjuration = 20 to work in all realms.

Subtract 5 points to work in 2 out of 3 realms (Pattern/Ygg/Chaos) and subtract another 5 point to work in 1 out of 3 realms.

Thinking like an elder... Individual shadows' magic is a freebie because it is SO weak. You don't even really need a Power (Pattern/Logrus/Trump) to stop it. Amber level Psyche will suffice. Magic, per se, is just not a significant power except to shadow dwellers.

Just a thought.

[RPGPundit]

I think the simple solution here is to actually say that local shadow-magic is free but you have to have some kind of magic to be able to use it; plus it takes time to learn.

So someone without sorcery, conjuration or power-words can't actually learn local magic. But if you are cross-shadow sorcerer, you can pick up local magic tricks that work only in one shadow without paying extra.

I often have local shadow magic be much more impressive than cross-shadow magic; its disadvantage is that it only works in that one shadow, and can be fucked around with by anything that disrupts the "laws" of that shadow.  I mean, its the same with superpowers.

RPGPundit

[Artifacts of Amber]

Taewakan

Thinking like an elder... Individual shadows' magic is a freebie because it is SO weak. You don't even really need a Power (Pattern/Logrus/Trump) to stop it. Amber level Psyche will suffice. Magic, per se, is just not a significant power except to shadow dwellers.


My only problem with this is I equate magic to technology (as far as ruling its effectiveness) and it seemed bullets were still a concern to the elders on shadow earth. Plain old shadow tech could kill them so why wouldn't a fireball or lightening bolt?


The reason I have Pc/NPC pay to learn a shadow magic is what defines it as magic to me is it breaks the "Natural" laws of that shadow and is therefore something not everyone in a shadow can use. If they ca then it is technology which I don't make people pay for to use.


I run it pretty close to Pundit's comments of magic "power/effectiveness" and who can quickly learn it. I see a shadow's magic as a stepping stone to the greater universal truths of magic that make up Sorcery like it is in the game book. So it has applications even outside that shadow, so a 5 point shadow magic allows you to learn magic in any shadow but only that shadows magic. So you could learn magic in multiple shadows for the same 5 points.

Just my thoughts!

[RTrimmer]

Well, since you can buy a shadow with control of contents for two points, five seems high to me.

I'm OK with very powerful magic in some shadows. If you have nukes some places, why not similarly powerful magics? I treat shadows with massively powerful gods or wizards, or Marvel/DC level superpowers, much the same as ones suffering from bad nuclear proliferation, really effective out-of-control genetic engineering, or loose nanotech: they don't last long without someone Controlling the Contents to script-write miraculous, repeated armageddon-avoidance. Lots of dead and mostly dead worlds around, and lots of fixer-uppers.

Taewakan

Thinking like an elder... Individual shadows' magic is a freebie because it is SO weak. You don't even really need a Power (Pattern/Logrus/Trump) to stop it. Amber level Psyche will suffice. Magic, per se, is just not a significant power except to shadow dwellers.


My only problem with this is I equate magic to technology (as far as ruling its effectiveness) and it seemed bullets were still a concern to the elders on shadow earth. Plain old shadow tech could kill them so why wouldn't a fireball or lightening bolt?


The reason I have Pc/NPC pay to learn a shadow magic is what defines it as magic to me is it breaks the "Natural" laws of that shadow and is therefore something not everyone in a shadow can use. If they ca then it is technology which I don't make people pay for to use.


I run it pretty close to Pundit's comments of magic "power/effectiveness" and who can quickly learn it. I see a shadow's magic as a stepping stone to the greater universal truths of magic that make up Sorcery like it is in the game book. So it has applications even outside that shadow, so a 5 point shadow magic allows you to learn magic in any shadow but only that shadows magic. So you could learn magic in multiple shadows for the same 5 points.

Just my thoughts!

[warp9]

I think the simple solution here is to actually say that local shadow-magic is free but you have to have some kind of magic to be able to use it; plus it takes time to learn.

So someone without sorcery, conjuration or power-words can't actually learn local magic.

So does that also apply to the locals?

Does a D&D magic-user need sorcery, conjuration or power-words before he can actually learn local magic? I would tend to assume not. And if he didn't need to know real magic before he could learn local magic, why couldn't a PC take that same route?

I put the same price on knowing local magic as I would on having an advanced knowledge of hyper-atomic physics. Those things can be useful in a limited environment, but they are both totally free.

[RPGPundit]

So does that also apply to the locals?

Does a D&D magic-user need sorcery, conjuration or power-words before he can actually learn local magic? I would tend to assume not. And if he didn't need to know real magic before he could learn local magic, why couldn't a PC take that same route?

I put the same price on knowing local magic as I would on having an advanced knowledge of hyper-atomic physics. Those things can be useful in a limited environment, but they are both totally free.

You have a certain point, yes. What I probably should have said is that people with those powers can learn them in a question of a short period of study (days, weeks) while someone without prior training in magic would take much longer (years, decades) to get any ability in them.