Julia

[SunBoy]

Well, I get it, and I can see the practical value of your system as a reference, but I'm not so sure about how I like it. In your example above, when the youngling achieves the next rung, then he is effectively better at whatever attribute it is than the elder, right? Why should it be easier for him to grow? Alright, young things learn faster than old things, but I don't really see it working... that generation will be the elder one one day. And what if it is the other way around? What if the elder is 5 points away from the next rung, and the youngling 25? Then the elder is able to progress faster... I don't know, I think I prefer one ladder for Amber, one for Chaos and that's it.

[gabriel_ss4u]

...sigggh
OK, one last time.
No, it is not easier for the younger.
It may only be easier if there are smaller gaps in the rungs/ranks.

Eric has a 60 Psyche       4th rank/rung
George has a 75 Psyche    3rd rank/rung
they are both elder generation (to say they are in the 300+ generation - if that is easier) (large gap between ranks)

Dan has 60 Psyche  4th rank/rung
Bill has 65 psyche   3rd rank/rung
they are both in the younger generation (to say they are 100 to 200 pts. generation) (small gap between ranks)

for Dan to move up 1 rung/rank, he spends 5 points, as the next rung is only 5 above him.

for Eric to move up, he has to spend 15 pts. as the next rung in his generation is 15 above him.

As I stated, the rungs are for determining how many points to increase in their generation to go up.

(A GM can determine to just let the player spend x amount and set the character at the nearest rung to correspond to the points spent, but that is another way instead of matching 1 rung at a time.)

[Croaker]

Well, I get it, and I can see the practical value of your system as a reference, but I'm not so sure about how I like it. In your example above, when the youngling achieves the next rung, then he is effectively better at whatever attribute it is than the elder, right? Why should it be easier for him to grow? Alright, young things learn faster than old things, but I don't really see it working... that generation will be the elder one one day. And what if it is the other way around? What if the elder is 5 points away from the next rung, and the youngling 25? Then the elder is able to progress faster... I don't know, I think I prefer one ladder for Amber, one for Chaos and that's it.

You forgot one think: Compétition.

Even in the original ADRPG, which compared ranks, not points, 1st players being able to set their next rank cost was a very real option.

Sure, if you set little steps, you progress faster. If you set bigger ranks, you make it harder for your siblings to progress: Only the truly dedicated will be able to. Thus, you more easily ensure your supremacy.
Say, you have this in psyche:
5 points - 4nd
6 points - 3rd
7 points - 2nd
8 points - 1st

You can be sure that everyone will buy a first rank in psyche. If the 1st progress to a rank at 9 points, everyone will follow him as well. If he set the rings at, say, 15 points, there will already be more hesitation. And if there is a 20-points gap? Who will follow him?

Also, I'd like to remind you this: Points invested in an attribute give an idea of this attribute's importance to the players. In the above exemple, they clearly don't care much about psyche, or the biddings would have been a lot fiercer. So you won't present them psyche challenges, but, say, strength challenges if they invested massively in strength: Psyche will be unimportant and seldom usefull.

Then again, look at the demon charts: Their Strength progression may be faster than amberites, but they'll be slower in psyche. This works exactly the same way in game, and I see nothing wrong with this, because I look at ranks, not points Points are evil!!! Points are math and accounting!! Points kill roleplay!!! Points eat children and spoil your food!!!

[SunBoy]

...sigggh
OK, one last time.
No, it is not easier for the younger.
It may only be easier if there are smaller gaps in the rungs/ranks.

...sigggh

...and if you had read my whole post, you could have noticed I had already understood that, and I'm merely disagreeing. Please don't talk down like that. It's rude.
In any case, the difficulties will be different, given that they are on different ladders. WHY?

@Croaker: We disagree here, too, I see. I actually find that having to compare two, three or more sets of ranks kills roleplaying more. And I do know that sentence doesn't make grammatical sense. I just think having one point ladder for each "side", (and making demons on the fly), is way more easy and in tone with the setting. And for the record, this whole discussion is merely academic. I'm not trying to say my way of "pretending to be a gay-ass elf is better" than anyone else's.

[Croaker]

Oh, perfectly understood.

In fact, I began with points, then dropped it for ranks and a universal ladder for elders and PCs, and then, when Erick introduced the Demon Charts and variation between ladders, went with this. So I can perfectly understand what you like in either of these

[gabriel_ss4u]

Croaker;
touchy touchy!
Intellectual slapstick I thought. Not thin-skinned gaming.
You may have mis-read me.
Your 1st sentence stated 'not practical use in using ranks'
that was what I was addressing, there IS a practical use, as I stated.
And I did read your post. Silly of you to assume I didn't read it all.
but I forgive you.

[Croaker]

Euh... I'm lost. To which of my posts are you reffering to???

Ah, found it. I feel like we aren't understanding each other (Like, I don't understand what you mean by your first 2 sentences)

What I meant by practical difference is that (at least if I understand correctly), using ranks may be more faster for you than remembering points, but in the end, this changes nothing from just comparing points, since:
- In a given groups, ranks are based on points (normal, IMO)
- When comparing across generations, you compare points, not ranks

Am I clearer?

[SunBoy]

Alright, alright. Maybe it was my mistake. I don't know, and if you don't care, then I don't either. I really don't want to have petty flaming wars in this forum, because I like it here. Sorry if it came across like that.
As an apology, and maybe this should be on the Trumps thread, maybe you'll like to take a look at these:

Some art by Rebecca Guay(scroll down, the B&W in the bottom are great).

Tony Di Terlizzi, in my opinion, one of the best fantasy artists around.

ETA: Croaker, I think he was replying to me.

[Croaker]

Oh!

I didn't mean it to sound like flaming.
I certainly didn't take anyone's words like that, and see absolutely no reason why anyone should apologize to anyone.
I'm still not sure if any people there understood others, or understood to whom each person was answering what to :lol:

Anyway, thanks for the art

[gabriel_ss4u]

Dangit, I had a post, it didn't get uploaded I guess... it was good too.
Yes, apologies abound. I too am sorry, my statment was actually mixed, for both Croaker and Sunboy, but I didn't explain.
Be aware, I like pretty much everyone on here.
I only like to have at Otha once in a while, nothing personal there either.

Craoker; you stated:
What I meant by practical difference is that (at least if I understand correctly), using ranks may be more faster for you than remembering points, but in the end, this changes nothing from just comparing points, since:
- In a given groups, ranks are based on points (normal, IMO)
- When comparing across generations, you compare points, not ranks


You are pretty much right though,
Ranks are actually harder for me as there are so many, I only use 'em for advancement rungs, not really comparison, I use pts. for comparrisons.

One thing I know, we each have a system that works for us, and that is one of the beauties of Amber DRPG, it's a bit more loose than other games as it encourages the GM to personalize it.
now.... lemme look at the art! Thanks, I like links like this.

[SunBoy]

Alright, my turn to clarify, then:

Alright, alright. Maybe it was my mistake. I don't know, and if you don't care, then I don't either. I really don't want to have petty flaming wars in this forum, because I like it here. Sorry if it came across like that.
As an apology, and maybe this should be on the Trumps thread, maybe you'll like to take a look at these:

Some art by Rebecca Guay(scroll down, the B&W in the bottom are great).

Tony Di Terlizzi, in my opinion, one of the best fantasy artists around.

THIS part up here was intended as a re: to Gabriel. (Not that the link couldn't be followed by whomever wants to, it's good art)

ETA: Croaker, I think he was replying to me.

This is pretty self explanatory, but the "he" in question was Gabe again.

So we're a happy family again. That's great . I don't want to jinx this place, but I'll say it anyway, this is one of the very few forums where one can expect to be mostly troll-free.

[Croaker]

No longer!!!

[weilide]

That fellow needs to work on his posture.

[RPGPundit]

Point the first: Julia is statted, in Shadow Knight.

Point the second: In my games, at least, you do NOT compare straight points with the elders.  You end up having a rank; and the next rank up to bit for a 1st ranked younger generation amberite would be the next rung on the ladder of the Elders.
It is a minor distinction, but still a very significant one.  To me, when you are running Amber correctly, you should never be just "comparing points". The points should always be used to place one on a rank.

RPGPundit

[jibbajibba]

Point the first: Julia is statted, in Shadow Knight.

Point the second: In my games, at least, you do NOT compare straight points with the elders.  You end up having a rank; and the next rank up to bit for a 1st ranked younger generation amberite would be the next rung on the ladder of the Elders.
It is a minor distinction, but still a very significant one.  To me, when you are running Amber correctly, you should never be just "comparing points". The points should always be used to place one on a rank.

RPGPundit

So are you saying a younger generation can't be higher ranked than an elder generation? So Merlin can't have higher psyche than Benedict and Luke can't have higher strength than Flora?

And of course you can play without ranks maybe not as written int eh rule book but you can play it and very little changes. You might even argue that as the Character templates in the book are given as points and not in ranks (the description of Flora doesn't say Flora should be 8th ot 9th rank in endurance it says she x points in endurance) that ranks are really only of use in the auction or for experience.
In fact I think It would be easy to give a play example and you wouldn't be able to tell if the game was using ranks or points.