Over on rpg.net there's a big Amber thread (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=449119) going on right now (wish someone would go over there and invite some of those guys to come here to the OFFICIAL amber board!), where at least a few posters are arguing that since neither the Corwin nor the Merlin saga features much "sci-fi" style shadows or setting elements, adding this into a game makes it emulate Amber less.
Do you think that's true? Does it affect the game negatively if your players go to shadows full of starships and light sabres?
I think this is only a product of who the narrators of the story are. The Merlin saga has more sci-fi stuff than the Corwin saga (still not a lot, but more), because Merlin is a more sci-fi kind of guy than Corwin.
And I'm sure that if Zelazny had written a story with Martin as the protagonist, it'd be full of Cyberpunk stuff.
RPGPundit
I think your examples are spot-on. On the whole, I would say sci-fi in Amber works best in small doses. After all, both Amber and the Courts are relatively low-tech and they tend to be the two poles of most campaigns, and obviously our Shadow Earth is not a sci-fi setting. Still, Zelazny was by no means afraid of sci-fi, having probably written at least as much in that genre as he did in fantasy (see his Lord of Light for a nice fantasy / sci-fi hybrid). I am inclined to follow his lead and mostly keep to sci-fi for flourishes here and there.
Quote from: RPGPundit;299199Do you think that's true? Does it affect the game negatively if your players go to shadows full of starships and light sabres?
I think this is only a product of who the narrators of the story are. The Merlin saga has more sci-fi stuff than the Corwin saga (still not a lot, but more), because Merlin is a more sci-fi kind of guy than Corwin.
And I'm sure that if Zelazny had written a story with Martin as the protagonist, it'd be full of Cyberpunk stuff.
RPGPundit
No, not true at all.
Why would it, there is anything possible in the Amber multiverse, the only hindrance would be the character not knowing how to used advanced technology as they may not have had time to learn or adapt the skill.
(but that's just part of the story and an obstacle to overcome)
And yes, I agree that had a story featured Martin, it would have had sci-fi us the yin-yang. RZ was certainly capable of it.
If these gamers know that ANYTHING is possible in ADRPG, then they should know it is the perfect platform for them to invent any sci-fi realm the wish.
Inherently, sci-fi is not bad for amber, it's just part of it.
What these guys mean, I think, is that both Amber and the Courts are mostly medieval-like, and that having computers and all in them would change them utterly from what we know, and create a very different feeling, one that could be argued to be not "amber-canon".
Problem is, shadow travel disrupts high tech just as it does magic, so it would be difficult to use these. On the other hand, C&A are just the thing for you, since what they look like is just a special effect: Following on Erick's Cyber Martin, I had random's son equiped with all sorts of pattern-based implants and computers
Well, the setting is defended from that kind of thing, by the fact that high-tech doesn't seem to work in Amber itself at all, and in chaos magic seems to be the high-tech.
So yes, what WOULD be against "canon" would be if people could use supercomputers in Amber. But not going into shadows where you can travel in starships and pilot giant robots all you like.
RPGPundit
Exactly. I had a game in which a player battled against his nemesis in a high-tech shadow with battlesuits, gauss rifles and all. Great fun
Then again... all things may 'evolve', even those in Amber.
Canon is canon... but a creative GM will always push the boundaries.
I'm all for keeping Amber like Amber, but there are some things I change.
Trumps locked in a case in the Library for one.
And dorm sized rooms for gods.... well, that one went in most of my campaigns too.
But I always keep the 'feel' of Amber.
This is drifting a bit off topic but I actually really like the dorm-sized rooms for gods. You get a much clearer sense what stuff the characters really care about when they have limited space and need to prioritize. (Brand's rug, for example). The common bathrooms are kind of a drag, though...
I think its noteworthy that apparently, in Erick's own campaign, he had a lot of superhero elements.
RPGPundit
Oh? How? That's great!
I always hoped a PC would bring me a character with such a background, and aven toyed with the idea of a super-villain invasion (although, of course, their powers wouldn't work very well, but I'd build them like C&A)
I always viewed the sci-fi tech stuff on par with Michael Moorcock's Hawkmoon and Elric fantasy series, where magic and technology often blended together.
IMCC one of the PC's is a "Golden Age" superhero.We use Power Words and Sorcery to give him "Super Powers".
It's working out pretty well.
or Piers Anthony, another blender of Sci-Fi and Fantasy in the same story-lines.
Remember... this is Amber, where anything is possible in Shadow.
The mind reels.
To me, Amber is more sci-fi than fantasy because of the way Zelazny wrote. Corwin was a pragmatic hero in a world where definable rules had predictable results-- the Pattern and Shadow-walking and Trump communications, while fantasy-esque on the surface, feel like sci-fi elements when you examine things closely. I actually contest the statement on the other thread that Merlin's is more sci-fi; what with all his sorcery and playing with sentient powers and things, that half has more of the feel of fantasy. Either way, I think this is the point the person over there tried to make: "fantasy" and "sci-fi" are labels that publishers use to tell the reader what is in a book so they will buy it, not something a writer has to clearly decide between... and to a nerd like me who thinks about these things, Zelazny was very clearly a genre-bending writer.
But that's all academic. Does it change the way you play the game? I don't know. I know that with my image of Corwin's Amber as an essentially sci-fi universe based on technologies we don't understand (who here can recite Clarke's Law?), my game will be different from someone who sees it as straight fantasy. Not entirely sure how... and not saying my way is right.
An interesting discussion; I wish the people over on that other thread had not devolved into slinging insults, that it might have remained interesting longer.
Quote from: Lady Vivamus;299678An interesting discussion; I wish the people over on that other thread had not devolved into slinging insults, that it might have remained interesting longer.
Well, you would say that…you JERK! Just kidding…
I think you raise an interesting point. One of the curious things about both Sci-Fi and Fantasy, to my mind, is that for many of the pulpier examples, at least, is that they represent a conflation of existential conventions (we accept the existence of faster-than-light travel, etc) and genre conventions (E.g., we accept behavior in a romantic comedy that would likely get the perpetrator thrown in jail in real life, etc) such we tend to think of sci-fi / fantasy as a genre when it's really a collection of works grouped by subject spanning many genres (as an example, the key contrast between Asimov's
Foundation books and Adams'
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series is that the latter are are comedic stories set within a substantially similar universe). In any case, based on my understanding, Zelazny saw sci-fi and fantasy as fundamentally similar, based on the possibilities inherent in both to described epic, godlike characters. I am very, very hard-pressed to think of ways in which play would be fundamentally different in a sci-fi versus fantasy milieu but I am open to suggestions…
Yes... very good point.
We all think of Conan as fantasy, and StarWars as SciFi
but what of the blend?
We usually call it that... a blend.
So I propose we use our own term..
Sci-Fant
works fer me.
Your blend has occured in too many books to count. That is why science fiction and fantasy are both under the bigger header "Speculative Fiction". Thus things that don't fit nicely into one sub category or the other are still in the same spectrum of Speculative Fiction.
This is an intersting thread. I am reminded of a (paraphrased) quote from Ostrander's Grimjack
"In Cynosure, Guns work here. Spells work there. Swords work everywhere."
I think you can spend wayyy to much time in the sci-fi cool places in shadow. However, the moment you move out of those cool places, the cool toys you would bring with you would have to be shifted to come along.
Thus the blaster becomes a gun becomes a local gun becomes a paperweight.
(aside: Has anyone thought about using the Italian Air Bladder Guns in Amber?)
The Clone of you becomes a person who is not you or disolves as you try to bring them towards reality.
Yes you can spend a lot of time out in The Reaches (where sci-fi and fantasy works in a way not consistant with Amber). Yet the action, the important things going on, all happens between Amber and Courts. So you tend to stick to places and things that you can use in Amber and the Courts.
Aside, and if you want to comment make a new thread...
There is a modern version patented
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5373833/description.html
The Italians were supposed to have an airbladder gun in the 1500s
[/i]
Quote from: MoonHunter;299842Your blend has occured in too many books to count. That is why science fiction and fantasy are both under the bigger header "Speculative Fiction". Thus things that don't fit nicely into one sub category or the other are still in the same spectrum of Speculative Fiction.
Yes you can spend a lot of time out in The Reaches (where sci-fi and fantasy works in a way not consistant with Amber). Yet the action, the important things going on, all happens between Amber and Courts. So you tend to stick to places and things that you can use in Amber and the Courts.
Well, The DaVinci Code is Speculative Fiction too. I think Sci-Fant works much better.
Also, I disagree, not all important 'things going on' are between Amber & Chaos, I believe... at least IMC, that the
real important things going on are happening in the Courts, Black Zone, Amber or Golden Ring.
But yes... swords work everywhere... which is why they use them.
Quote from: iadagon;299563IMCC one of the PC's is a "Golden Age" superhero.We use Power Words and Sorcery to give him "Super Powers".
It's working out pretty well.
One thing I've always assumed is that the "Power of shadow" can mean that people can have all kinds of special superpowers, even cosmic-level powers, in a specific shadow or certain specific shadows.
That's how many constructs gain all that massive psychic force.
This means that you could easily have Superman or The Flash or Green Lantern in a specific shadow (The DC Shadow); and their powers might even work in a few other shadows; without having to explain it in terms of the major shadows (ie. Superman doesn't have to have a spell that mimics heat vision, he just has heat vision; Green Lantern's ring need not be a spikard, it could just be the GL ring). The thing is, if these guys are sent to a different shadow, or if someone uses a "real" power like Pattern or Logrus to change the "rules" of that shadow, they become powerless. Superman might be stronger than Gerard in the DC shadow, but move him to Avalon or Amber or our Shadow Earth, and he has none of his abilities and human-level strength, because he can no longer draw from the power of shadow of the DC shadow.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;299921Superman might be stronger than Gerard in the DC shadow, but move him to Avalon or Amber or our Shadow Earth, and he has none of his abilities and human-level strength, because he can no longer draw from the power of shadow of the DC shadow.
:huhsign:
I get what you're saying, but that bit in bold seems to me like a major change to the system.
I have always had a slightly different interpretation of the system. My understanding is that things such as magic may or may not work on a case by case basis varying by shadow but attributes such as strength that are Amber or above are basically defined as being better than the best in shadow because the shadow is never as good as the original. Thus Gerard is stronger than the strongest people but not necessarily stronger than a shadow bull, for example, because that shadow bull is not a reflection of Amber people but rather of Amber bovines which may in turn be stronger than Amber humans, if that makes any sense. (I feel I did not explain that clearly). Anyhow, that's just my take. Partly it has to do with the nature of shadow.
My version of the shadow possibility space is that shadow may be infinite but at the same time there may be things that cannot be found in shadow. Abstract math example: Shadow may be defined as between zero and one whereas Amber is defined as greater than one. There is an infinite set between zero and one (.1, .01, .001, …) but that shadow set will never reach or exceed the Amber set, which is always greater. Thus, in this example there is an infinite set of shadow strongmen but they would never outstrong Gerard, all other things being equal. I don't know if that's the "right way" to do it but it's the one that has always made the most sense to me.
Well, I've always considered that superpowered shadow would give superpowers to PCs.
Like, in the DC universe, normal humans are Human in strength, Batman is Chaosian, Superman is ranked. So, any ranked PC might be able to do feats of super-strength, because there, amber and better strength is superhuman (and it is, actually)
I have no issue with a shadow dweller being stronger than Gerard or a better sorcerer than Fiona. In the immensity of Shadow, with a little nudge from a family member, formidable foes can be found. The thing is, those shadow champions, as good as they are in their excellency domain, won't be able to hold their ground to a prince of Amber if you change terrain and rules. Gerard might meet a giant metallic worm that's stronger than he is, but he'll be able to outsmart the beast with his tactical experience, or he'll play the atttrition game helped by his super human endurance... Only the royal family of Amber have those characters who not only are amazing in their field but are way above the average in general.
Quote from: boulet;299985I have no issue with a shadow dweller being stronger than Gerard or a better sorcerer than Fiona. In the immensity of Shadow, with a little nudge from a family member, formidable foes can be found. The thing is, those shadow champions, as good as they are in their excellency domain, won't be able to hold their ground to a prince of Amber if you change terrain and rules. Gerard might meet a giant metallic worm that's stronger than he is, but he'll be able to outsmart the beast with his tactical experience, or he'll play the atttrition game helped by his super human endurance... Only the royal family of Amber have those characters who not only are amazing in their field but are way above the average in general.
I am not so sure about that.
I love the Amberites , fantastic fellows all but I suspect that if I went out and recruited the right sort of guys I could put together a set of guys that could give them a real run for their money.
The guiding powers for Most Amberites is not their attrributes or their powers it's their cunning. Yes Gerrard is immensely strong, Benedict is the ultimate warrior and Fiona a great sorceror but their edge is none of these things it's their ability to put it all together. This however, is not unique.
the isuse is that Zelazny's Amber universe is not infinite. It is limited by the conventions of his world, interests and plot. It's like Pundit said in another thread somewhere about Superhero games, becuase the PCs in a game are not limited by the conventions of hte plot/genre superhero games rarely work well. Superman is fine in the comics but give a PC his powers and the game is all but over. The same is true of real infitinty in the Amberverse.
So if we take fiction as a starting point I suspect we could recruit our own League of extraordinary gentlefolk from shadow. We accept that any powers magical, technological or other would be limited in range to the characters local shadow or some cluster of similar shadows.
My team therefore might be ...
Sherlock Holmes - insight intelligence and reasoning
Locke Lamora - cunning, deception and planning
Bat Man - physical skill, combat excellent and reasoning
Elecktra - Combat excellence, physical skill and an egde of ruthlessness
Buckaroo Banzai - polymath, physical excellence and he can play guitar
Lucifer (the Vertigo version) - cunning, ruthlessness and decpetion
John Constantine - cunning, innate understanding of magical process and blind luck
Silk - cunning, deception and acting
You could drag these guys from Shadow and dump them in Amber city and give them a task to bring down the kingdom. In fact that would be quite a lot of fun I suspect.
I don't like the Superhuman Amberite. Yes they are tough and strong and smart but you don;t get the impression you are dealling with superheroes. Ramdon and Corwin carry a Merc. Superman can pick up a merc in one hand and use it to knock a satelite out of orbit. Corwin can fence for 24 hours without stopping but Atlas can hold a mountain on his back for 1000 years and doesn't even need toilet breaks.
What realy gets me though is this idea that Amberites are smarter than anyone else. All the characters listed above as smart as any Amberite and smarter than most. Corwin actually talks to and values the opinion of Freud and Bill Roth.
If as a GM you introduce too much 'infinity' into your Amber games, be it Sci-fi, Superheroes or magic the PCs will do the same thing and you will get situations which are logical but way out of genre. The guy with best warfare accepts a trump passage from the guy standing in an oxygen free spaceship who is surrounded by an invisible force field round him and an oxygen generator on his belt, or a PC uses a death star to blow up the world the bad guys are standing on, or the whole time travel schtick where the PC finds the infinite world where these events have all happened before and his shadow self wrote them all down in a handy A4 binder.
Quote from: JongWK;299926:huhsign:
I get what you're saying, but that bit in bold seems to me like a major change to the system.
It isn't hard to imagine a creature or monster that would be at least as strong as Gerard in shadow, a Last Son of Krypton might be one of them.
But this is a boost provided by "magic of shadow", its unreal, and Gerard or others could remove this difference by use of the pattern (or Logrus).
Its the same argument as that of a Construct having more raw psyche than Fiona. It doesn't mean the construct would BEAT Fiona, or that Superman would beat Gerard.
RPGPundit
Quote from: boulet;299985I have no issue with a shadow dweller being stronger than Gerard or a better sorcerer than Fiona. In the immensity of Shadow, with a little nudge from a family member, formidable foes can be found. The thing is, those shadow champions, as good as they are in their excellency domain, won't be able to hold their ground to a prince of Amber if you change terrain and rules. Gerard might meet a giant metallic worm that's stronger than he is, but he'll be able to outsmart the beast with his tactical experience, or he'll play the atttrition game helped by his super human endurance... Only the royal family of Amber have those characters who not only are amazing in their field but are way above the average in general.
Generally speaking, yes.
RPGPundit
Quote from: jibbajibba;300012I don't like the Superhuman Amberite. Yes they are tough and strong and smart but you don;t get the impression you are dealling with superheroes. Ramdon and Corwin carry a Merc. Superman can pick up a merc in one hand and use it to knock a satelite out of orbit. Corwin can fence for 24 hours without stopping but Atlas can hold a mountain on his back for 1000 years and doesn't even need toilet breaks.
What realy gets me though is this idea that Amberites are smarter than anyone else. All the characters listed above as smart as any Amberite and smarter than most. Corwin actually talks to and values the opinion of Freud and Bill Roth.
Let's not forget that Corwin & Random picked up that Mercedes and were not on a super-powered shadow.
That is one point that
can't be ignored. The ability to do what they can... just about
anywhere. Superman may have that strength as was stated, in his shadow or a group of relatively similar reality-ruled shadows. The Amberites have their abilities and powers
everywhere. (provided the reality allows) but still, far more places than the 'supers'.
Also, your team, though interesting, has not the eons of experience that the Amberites do. They may have a shot at the mission, but their lack of understanding of the multiverse in whole will cause a severe deficit.
And I agree w/ Pundit, Superman MAY be stronger in the DC universe, but take him out of that shadow, and it's ALL Gerard.
BTW, that shadow Bull would have to be ONE HELLOVA BULL!
When you talk about a shadow that has something/someone that may rank even or above the best that an Amberite has, it is not as primal as an Amberite. If it is, then you have one heavy hitting contender.
I recall the early idea Wujick put forth about Loki walking the Pattern, (or atleast attempting it), that opened alot of thoughts up to me. Is Loki a shadow being? a Chaosian? a primal being?
Is Superman?
Is he from a primal shadow?
I have a primal shadow that is basically our Champions universe, and some of the beings in it
are primal, though they can't maintain their abitities in all shadow as Amberites, they only can in similar shadows, making them overall still less than Amber.
I believe there should be more challenges to Amberites than just Amber or Chaos, though said beings are not challenges
everywhere.
I'm all about Amberites and Chaosians facing challenges in shadow but I think they should be different kinds of challenges than they face from their peers. That is to say, I think most any Amberite should be able to best most any shadow dweller in a mano-a-mano arm wrestling match but it's a different kettle of fish when fending off five hundred ticked off shadow peasants with torches and pitchforks, or when the Shadow Earth SWAT team floods the building with tear gas, etc.
Quote from: weilide;300355I'm all about Amberites and Chaosians facing challenges in shadow but I think they should be different kinds of challenges than they face from their peers. That is to say, I think most any Amberite should be able to best most any shadow dweller in a mano-a-mano arm wrestling match but it's a different kettle of fish when fending off five hundred ticked off shadow peasants with torches and pitchforks, or when the Shadow Earth SWAT team floods the building with tear gas, etc.
hmmm.... well, I believe their superior tactics would allow them to find the best way out of such multiple attacker situations, (ie; the best escape route, the best mass-attack weapon for the situation, diplomacy or fast talking, disguse, or just plain 'ol Steven Segeal ass kickin'.
And I think as you say,
most shadow dwellers. I mean, Amber level (zero) is better than shadow earth's
best. But not DC universe's best. right?
truly it's up to each GM and their shadow-verse, as anything is possible in shadow.
Quote from: gabriel_ss4u;300349Let's not forget that Corwin & Random picked up that Mercedes and were not on a super-powered shadow.
That is one point that can't be ignored. The ability to do what they can... just about anywhere. Superman may have that strength as was stated, in his shadow or a group of relatively similar reality-ruled shadows. The Amberites have their abilities and powers everywhere. (provided the reality allows) but still, far more places than the 'supers'.
Also, your team, though interesting, has not the eons of experience that the Amberites do. They may have a shot at the mission, but their lack of understanding of the multiverse in whole will cause a severe deficit.
And I agree w/ Pundit, Superman MAY be stronger in the DC universe, but take him out of that shadow, and it's ALL Gerard.
BTW, that shadow Bull would have to be ONE HELLOVA BULL!
When you talk about a shadow that has something/someone that may rank even or above the best that an Amberite has, it is not as primal as an Amberite. If it is, then you have one heavy hitting contender.
I recall the early idea Wujick put forth about Loki walking the Pattern, (or atleast attempting it), that opened alot of thoughts up to me. Is Loki a shadow being? a Chaosian? a primal being?
Is Superman?
Is he from a primal shadow?
I have a primal shadow that is basically our Champions universe, and some of the beings in it are primal, though they can't maintain their abitities in all shadow as Amberites, they only can in similar shadows, making them overall still less than Amber.
I believe there should be more challenges to Amberites than just Amber or Chaos, though said beings are not challenges everywhere.
I totally agree that 'super powered' folk are limited to a small shadow. That is why my team has no super powered folk in it. Training, smarts, cunning and chtzpah. My point was not that hte Amberites have a huge advantage in being Primal as you say. This is true but I do dispair when they are portrayed as super heroes. Thye strength of the Amber stories is the grounded nautre of the characters as Pundit says its about that family. On the plane of Asgard then Frey, Thor and Magni woudl give then a run for their money but yes they could shift two shadows to the left and boff these guys are just hairy Swedes with a superiority complex (Loki is a diffferent proposition mind). The point for me is that Amberites are about the politics and the cunning but they don't have a lock on theses things. Shadow beings can be just as smart. So when I say be careful with how much infinity you put in your games I mean just that. Allowing too much Sci-fi or Classical mythology for that can have issues if your players choose to exploit it to its full potential.
getting back to the original post there is a real problem with hi tech weapons in Amber. The Warfare stat is sooo open that if you push it to its limit it can put players off.
Player - I take a bead with my PMP13 Fusion cannon on the cotttage where Benedict has been living and blow the crap out of. The PMP13 will leave a crater 30 feet deep and 60 feet across.
GM - yeah um this morning Benedict decided to sleep in the barn 200 yards away.
Player - but I have been living as his guest for 2 months and he always sleeps in the same place and has breakfast ont eh porch.
Gm - not today though
Player - okay I trigger the min thermo nuke I placed in the hollowed out tree stump. It will vaporise everything in a 1 mile radius.
GM - Yeah you trigger it but it doesn't work, you reckon its been disabled.
Player - but its the size of a nickle, and has its own cloaking mechanism making it all but invisible
Gm - Yeah , still...
There is a reason why Oberon limited the tech in Amber to swords and bows...
Yeah, but that sounds like an idiot player I would never have in my campaign.
What is the player's reasoning for attempting an assassination of Benedict?
Why would Benedict have a cottage in a shadow that such weaponry exists and could be used against him when relaxing?
even if someone used advanced pattern to make such a thing work in a localized area, I'd figure Benedict would read the lesser warfare person and know his goal.
(unless this player somehow had a higher warfare...?????)
or better... what would a recourse to a successful assassination be?
I hear ya. But it all boils down to the players and GM, as I said before, I do feel spoiled having a cream of the crop group in which I was blessed enough to know and play with.
One of them, his player was from the Champions superhero universe (raised there as a super), and fits well into the campaign.
But I also feel if it cannot blend well in someone's campaign, then sweep it out the door.
Quote from: gabriel_ss4u;300349I recall the early idea Wujick put forth about Loki walking the Pattern, (or atleast attempting it), that opened alot of thoughts up to me. Is Loki a shadow being? a Chaosian? a primal being?
Do you recall where it can be found? I have absolutely no memory of such a thing, and it sounds interesting :)
Sci-Fi certainly isn't bad for an Amber campaign. I wouldn't use it in heavy quantities and I usually run the game under the assumption that Shadows with extremely advanced technology are a bit closer to the Chaos side of things rather than the Amber side.
For instance, antagonists from the Courts of Chaos in the Fires of Greymoor campaign I'm running use energy powered rifles that use a form of Shadow teleportation. It's limited, easy to trace and extremely dangerous, but it created a really cool fight scene as well.
I mean, in the end, the use of technology on the side of the GM is all about balance. I wouldn't use it to beat the crap out of the players. In fact, I almost hope they think investing all of their advantages in Shadow Tech is a good idea (I'm not going to limit them, essentially).
Pattern is always there to aid or hinder, after all.
Well, that's another issue: I've always seen the courts as pretty full of Magi-tech; stuff that seems like a kind of technology but is actually totally based on magic.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Croaker;300702Do you recall where it can be found? I have absolutely no memory of such a thing, and it sounds interesting :)
This was referring to play-testing of Amber if my mind is correct. Some of his players in a game scenario I think. I'll look it up. I believe it was the game book or an Amberzine.
::: rifling thru books like Dworkin...:::
Another possibility is that if an Amberite traveled to a superhero Shadow, that their own strength, endurance, and what not would suddenly scale up, or that they could scale it up by just using the Pattern while in that Shadow. Or as someone said, given that they are Primal, even though Superman could lift more than they could, it could be that if Superman tried to hit an Amberite, he would break his hand, or at least bruise his knuckles.
Yes!
Yes!
...ummm, nah, not the bruised kanucklez one IMC, unless it might be Gerard he hit.
Quote from: Corambis;303037Another possibility is that if an Amberite traveled to a superhero Shadow, that their own strength, endurance, and what not would suddenly scale up, or that they could scale it up by just using the Pattern while in that Shadow. Or as someone said, given that they are Primal, even though Superman could lift more than they could, it could be that if Superman tried to hit an Amberite, he would break his hand, or at least bruise his knuckles.
In the context of the books I can't see this working.
We have no real evidence that Amberites can use the Pattern to alter their relative Strength etc in a shadow. They might be able to shift to another shadow where things are lighter and allt eh dwellers are realatively weaker as a result but that is a slightly different thing. If this were the case then Pattern would indeed be worth those 50 points and Fiona woudl be able to boost her strength above Gerard's even in Amber (just a shadow afterall).
If you think about how Zelazny might approach stuff like Super powers and the like. I can't see Corwin shifting to Metropolis and being tougher than Superman. I can see him turning up in Metropolis and just being like an ordinary bloke thinking wow look I really believe a man can fly... Its hte ordinary Humaness of Amberites that makes the story so compelling I think if you move out of that space you loose something.
Quote from: jibbajibba;303148In the context of the books I can't see this working.
We have no real evidence that Amberites can use the Pattern to alter their relative Strength etc in a shadow. They might be able to shift to another shadow where things are lighter and allt eh dwellers are realatively weaker as a result but that is a slightly different thing. If this were the case then Pattern would indeed be worth those 50 points and Fiona woudl be able to boost her strength above Gerard's even in Amber (just a shadow afterall).
If you think about how Zelazny might approach stuff like Super powers and the like. I can't see Corwin shifting to Metropolis and being tougher than Superman. I can see him turning up in Metropolis and just being like an ordinary bloke thinking wow look I really believe a man can fly... Its hte ordinary Humaness of Amberites that makes the story so compelling I think if you move out of that space you loose something.
Well, like so many things with Amber, a lot depends on your interpretation of various things. The Amberites all have what would be considered superhuman powers, although they aren't necessarily too far outside the realm of physical possibility. The strongest man on Earth might be able to come to close to a very weak Amberite. If we're talking about a Shadow with different rules regarding what is physically possible, ie. strength magnitudes above human norm, then I think Amberite's gaining more strength and other attributes could be a valid approach.
As for the ordinary Humanness of Amberites, I think the Humanness comes out of their personalities and their foibles. They already have powers that set them aside from normal men and women. And it is not like we are talking about a permanent change to their attributes; this would only be true for that Shadow. And I am not saying they should be granted unrealistic powers like heat-vision or super breath... but they would still have their unrealistic powers of sorcery, Pattern, and what not :P
You could just as easily say that the superhero Shadow has an extremely weak gravity, such that without the Amberites' stats actually changing, they would end up being immensely more powerful than normal inhabitants of that Shadow, and physically on a par with a Superman equivalent.