I love Amber and all the fun it has brought me. Eric was a talented designer but given that -
Where in the few rules of Amber do you diverge and do things different?
I'll list mine and we can discuss everyone's choices and why :)
5 Stat system instead of 4. Had to split Warfare in two to warfare and dexterity.
Good/Bad Stuff - I have detailed my way several many times here on various threads, but basically it does not effect luck or how the universe views you.
How ranks work. I keep the number of points bid in as a deciding factor so a difference of 10 points in bidding shows a serious difference versus one being a rank higher than the other.
Advancement - no Wish list you get what you work at. And I tend to give a lot of small rewards.
Minor differences I better defined sorcery, conjuration and artifacts but they are still very recognizable as the orginials
and a small expansion I guess would be partial powers.
I prefer usually to stick to the standard rules.
The only thing I had to reformulate was Conjuration, which in my opinion was too confusing and therefore unusable. I didn't change it, only made clear what you can do and how long it will take.
My sorcery and conjuration rules both went through that. A clearer definition of what you can do.
The artifact cost rewrite is 90% like it was just with clearer measurements (Comparatives to characters not real world stuff) and fixed the Transferal rules.
How did you define Conjuration better?
I've made Advanced Pattern mirror the novels -- Fiona and JoJ tricks.
Shift shadow in Amber.
Nullify, glitch or aid other people's use of powers.
Shift shadow without moving.
Scry across many shadows for Pattern or Logrus traces.
Hide or make obvious traces of most powers.
Shortcuts through shadow.
Blessings and curses. (Not to be confused with far more powerful death curses.)
Used a simple skills system. Anything that fits background at a professional level. World class skills for 1-2 points. So, no, Warfare doesn't make you a super-thief, -driver, etc.
Used Madeline Ferwerda's take on Shapeshifting. http://www.z-amber.com/soad/soadrules.html
Cut the point cost of Trump Artistry to 25 and got rid of 'Trump powered items'.
Defined Control of Contents as effectively making the owner #1 in Psyche and any powers they have while in their shadow.
C o Destiny allowed the owner to banish anyone from his world -- the next step the banished one took exited the shadow, the banishee couldn't find it again, any location Trumps of the world the banishee tried to use were destroyed upon contact and anyone attempting to pull them through to it got expelled.
Pattern death curses didn't lay down Bad Stuff. They laid a new, narrow, fundamental law on the multiverse. Benedict got cursed by Dara with, "Never heal." Shortly thereafter Ben cursed the leaders of Chaos with, "Success." Meaning their enemies', against them. The only way to get rid of one would be for another Pattern initiate to die laying down a contrary blessing.
Most of the Powers I use straight out of the books because they are still so loosely that I can interpret them any way I desire.
I hadn't seen Madeline's site before so Thanks for that something to look through and think/steal what is interesting :)
I keep Trump like it is because I have found it to be something people really miss if no one has access to it. I also make Trump sketches more powerful or more versatile than they have in the book because I allow it to be an almost sensory ability so if you sketch something you can learn about it on some fundamental level.
Why do you make it cheaper?
I don't use skills that you pay for just have Characters list 10-12 they are good at then look at their background and judge from there if they know how to do something or not. So they don't know every skill.
Have never dealt with blood curses so that one is still undefined in most my games.
Why cheaper?
I largely agree with this:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?557693-Alternate-Amber-Settings/page2
TA as presented in the novels is a utility power. In most games players have or soon get Trumps of each other and most of the family. And it's easy to refuse a contact -- noob Martin kept Brand from contacting him after being badly wounded.
40 points might come close to making sense if only one PC could take it, if complete family decks were hard to replace and hoarded, and if getting more from NPCs was expensive, dangerous and iffy.
I'm not sure I diverge from the rules so much as build onto them. That is to say, I try to keep the standard rules for attributes, powers, items, and so on, but I also allow for my creativity (and that of the players) to work side-by-side with the rules. I think overall that the ADRP rules system is simple and elegant, yet versitile and allows for interpretation. I find that its elements seem pretty well balanced overall.
I had tinkered with sub-stats, for example, but found at the end that having extra stats was nice from a character creation standpoint but seemed to get in my way as a GM. I ended up taking the sub-stats and creating an equation to combine them together for my own use, so the players felt like there was additional detail that never really worked its way into the actual play.
Partial powers (I use Power trees but I redefine them each game and never show the whole tree to PCs) This also allows PCs to develop powers in abnormal directions. This means very different point costs for some abilities
Skill system
2 new attributes - Sucession = how close you are to the throne and acts as a pool of good stuff in Amber
- Political Influence - can be Amber or Chaos (or split) gives you allies in the castle , noble houses etc and The Sanctum
The Sanctum is Amber's parliament set up by Oberon to ensure no one can amass enough power to overthrow him and to delegate the tedious affairs of state. Divided into 3 tiers - Wardens, Dukes and Masters. Wardens tend to be princes, the others nobility. Assignment of positions becomes a big focus in most games and seeding the Sanctum with your allies from various noble houses is a game unto itself. The Overwarden acts as regent in The King's absence, Warden of Swords runs the army, Warden of Seals is Amber's spymaster etc ... 6 Wardens , 12 Dukes, 18 Masters.
Tend to use points over ranks (so 30 points more in Psyche is a lot more than 5 points even if there are 5 ranks for the second gap)
Experience tied to objectives weighted to level of challenge. These can be personal or campaign based. So you can pursue personal objecitves ignore the plot and still gain xp.
You don't need to spend xp in quantum steps you can just put 4 more in Strength and the top guy isn't safe if they want to stay top they have to keep on spending points to stay there, or at least they think they do....
Demons and everyone else just use the same stat system and everyone sits on the same point/rank list
Rarely use the elders apart from Oberon and Dworkin
Tone down Warfare so things like invisible oponents and being shot by a sniper remain risks. In my mind I tend to have "points" these sorts of effects are worth though not published.
Stress Strength as hit points - makes it more popular in auctions
Sometimes split Warfare and Tactics into 2 separate attributes. With Warfare covering personal combat and Tactics covering, strategy, logistics and well tactics. Usually don't bother.
When I use the Amber engine to run a different setting I let the players vote on the attributes. So we might run Strength, Warfare, Endurance, Psyche but we might run Perception, Willpower, Prowess, Charisma and Mechanical Aptitude
Quote from: RTrimmer;838737Why cheaper?
I largely agree with this:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?557693-Alternate-Amber-Settings/page2
TA as presented in the novels is a utility power. In most games players have or soon get Trumps of each other and most of the family. And it's easy to refuse a contact -- noob Martin kept Brand from contacting him after being badly wounded.
40 points might come close to making sense if only one PC could take it, if complete family decks were hard to replace and hoarded, and if getting more from NPCs was expensive, dangerous and iffy.
In play Trump tricks are always more useful that Trump artistry. One of the main drives towards partial powers is that in the books a lot of people have little special tricks they do with trump or pattern or whatever. Caine doesn't create his own trumps but he can eavesdrop on trump converstaion etc.
As I allow abnormal expansion of elements of each power I often end up with people who have some bizare little trump powers.
I used to have a few deviations from the rules, but the more I play Amber and the more I run it, the more I return to the rules as written.
I've tried skill systems, I've tried breaking up stats, I've tried partial powers; for the longest time I maintained the relative value between the number of points spent for statistics, and I've found that all this ultimately detracts from the engine. (I must be the only Amber fan who does not approve of partial powers.)
Oh, except for this - I have worked hard to find a few good (and well-warned) monkey wrenches to throw into the plans of sorcerers with fast-time shadows and time manipulation spells. Because, boy, does that ever complicate things.
//Panjumanju
Quote from: jibbajibba;839018In play Trump tricks are always more useful that Trump artistry. One of the main drives towards partial powers is that in the books a lot of people have little special tricks they do with trump or pattern or whatever. Caine doesn't create his own trumps but he can eavesdrop on trump converstaion etc.
As I allow abnormal expansion of elements of each power I often end up with people who have some bizare little trump powers.
Those can be fun.
Quote from: Panjumanju;839055Oh, except for this - I have worked hard to find a few good (and well-warned) monkey wrenches to throw into the plans of sorcerers with fast-time shadows and time manipulation spells. Because, boy, does that ever complicate things.
This.
I have no problem with people spamming up spells, but you have to pay for it.
And I am wary of C&A abuse, of course.
For me, what divergence there was is visible in where the rules of Lords of Olympus are different from those of Amber.
During my Amber DRPG campaign, which ran for almost 10 years, I experimented with various rule variants and alterations. Since I've recently started a new Amber campaign (a one-on-one campaign), I've decided to update / clean up those variant rules, which I've dubbed "ReBMA" (Revised Basic Mechanics for Amber):
http://amberway.free.fr/REBMA.html
In a nutshell, it keeps the same diceless approach but removes the auction mechanic (for reasons detailed therein), converts attribute relative ranks to absolute scores and gets rid of good/bad stuff. I know that removing the auction may sound like a total heresy to some of you (in fact, some years ago, Pundit expressed his utter contempt and disgust for an earlier version of those same variant rules - no need to bother again, thanks, you made your point back then) but remember that (a) these are just optional, variant rules and (b) even with these changes, it it still Amber and still Amber Diceless (the wonderful, epic game sessions full of mystery, intrigue and tension we played for all those years stand testament to this fact). I think one of Amber DRP's greatest strengths is its "toybox" aspect, which allows each gaming group to tailor and tweak the rules according to their preferences... In fact, there are probably as many different Amber games as there are Amber GMs (just like Shadows, eh :)) So this is not me reinventing the (ghost)wheel - just a gamemaster's own take on those fascinating, unique rules.
Even if I like to play Amber as it is and don't feel the need for changes (only for clarifications), I appreciate a lot your work: it is an act of love for Amber, it is well explained and presented. And it is your game: play it like you want.
A bit of archeology, but to hell with that.
The biggest problem with Amber we've ever had lies in Attributes and vague description of fields they are supposed to encompass.
"Were I to know that Attribute x is responsible for y, I'd bet on different Attribute". "Huh? I did it, because I was sure it's gonna be WARFARE contest." And so on, and so forth...
To deal with this "problem", we tried to simply replace Attributes with some other, more intuitive names, expand their quantity, etc. Sometimes it was Body-Mind-Soul-Conflict, sometimes Strength:raw - Strength:finesse, all in an attempt to make the list more approachable. Results were mixed, no matter what we didn't manage to avoid occasional "are you sure Attr x is best suited for this task?" discussions, still I think the experiment was fun.
Recently, I had the opportunity to participate in a game running "Lords of Gossamer". Same thing happened when one of players declared short string of actions relying on his character's perception and there was a disagreement regarding matching Attribute. We settled for Warfare (as usual), but I think somebody's gonna suggest a slight change in upcoming games.
...providing we're gonna play. The only people interested with this kind of game are usually too busy, to meet often.
Anyway. I think the problem lies in language difference and different (perhaps cultural?) understanding of certain terms and corresponding activities.
Come to think about it, I wonder what Attributes "Olympians" use.
I'm currently playing LoO, in a year long campaign, and I am realizing that the players don't think in term of stats. No more. It's me, as the GM, who quickly think what stat to use in the specific case. And I don't tell them which one I choose.
I think that in this way the immersion is stronger.
Maybe sometimes it is not completely consistent, but ain't life that way too?
Quote from: Evermasterx;877694I'm currently playing LoO, in a year long campaign, and I am realizing that the players don't think in term of stats. No more. It's me, as the GM, who quickly think what stat to use in the specific case. And I don't tell them which one I choose.
I think that in this way the immersion is stronger.
Maybe sometimes it is not completely consistent, but ain't life that way too?
Yes, it is! After all, we often err when it comes down to assessing what we can, and what is too risky/easy enough. Darwin's Award seems like an excellent proof for that. ;]
I'm also agreeing with "immersion".
Part of the problem is that I rarely play with people who aren't at least veterans of some other RPG, and it might be that they need more time to switch the perception from stats/attributes to the story.
After all, both AMBER and its successors are so much different to "roll initiative" gaming.
You're right. It's a differente game and takes time to play with the new paradigm. Maybe it is not the right game for something quick. For that I suggest you Everway, if you can put your hands on a copy.
Quote from: Evermasterx;877881You're right. It's a differente game and takes time to play with the new paradigm. Maybe it is not the right game for something quick. For that I suggest you Everway, if you can put your hands on a copy.
Thanks, but finding players, especially those willing to play something new, is very hard nowadays. It's far more promising to try and work with what I have at my disposal, overcome problems, rather than introduce different game. ;]
Not that I won't ask whether somebody around owns a copy of Everway. After all, even if you don't play it, you may still find some nice trick, source of inspiration and what not.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;877887Thanks, but finding players, especially those willing to play something new, is very hard nowadays. It's far more promising to try and work with what I have at my disposal, overcome problems, rather than introduce different game. ;]
Not that I won't ask whether somebody around owns a copy of Everway. After all, even if you don't play it, you may still find some nice trick, source of inspiration and what not.
just let the players pick there own stats.
At the start of the game say okay we can have 4-6 stats what do we want to use.
I have used the Amber engine for numerous games and if you get the players up front to define what you need to stat out it usually works really well and they totally get what each stat means because they have chosen them. And they usually end up with something similar to RAW. You need to explain that combat, magical power, hit points , and all that will be part of the stats but I have had skills as stats (pilot in a Star Wars game) and in one game we had a whole skill array we auctioned on.
Then issues like 'perception' stop being a problem cos you have an attribute called Perception. AS a GM if there is something required for your game in particular, political contacts or whatever make sure you discuss it at teh same time.
Once its decided though you as the GM have to own it and make sure the guidelines are very clear and precise.
Quote from: jibbajibba;878031Once its decided though you as the GM have to own it and make sure the guidelines are very clear and precise.
A question! Tell me, does that work well with total newcomers? I mean, I know for a fact, that it's a good solution once players play a little and get the overall feeling of the whole game. I've never try that approach straight from the beginning.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;878096A question! Tell me, does that work well with total newcomers? I mean, I know for a fact, that it's a good solution once players play a little and get the overall feeling of the whole game. I've never try that approach straight from the beginning.
Works fine for new players, not so fine for new Game Masters. Players often come with neat ideas but don't know the rules to a game, so they aren't limited so much by "what you can do" and "what you cannot do" and so I think they adapt well.
Quote from: finarvyn;878884Works fine for new players, not so fine for new Game Masters. Players often come with neat ideas but don't know the rules to a game, so they aren't limited so much by "what you can do" and "what you cannot do" and so I think they adapt well.
That's what I thought. It's not so easy to split the reality on equally important aspects, especially if you don't know what the game is really about, after all.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;879037That's what I thought. It's not so easy to split the reality on equally important aspects, especially if you don't know what the game is really about, after all.
Fin's point about experienced GM is the key.
The GM needs to be very clear and precise about what each 'stat' can do. The players take that lead.
So take my Amber Star Wars
It was years ago but I think the stats we came up with were
Combat
Force
Endurance
Pilot
Robotics
Once we defined those it was easy to define a mechanism to run Force powers.
Endurance became your HP.
I told the guys I would set thresholds for technical stuff like piloting or fixing robots but would keep them hidden and that force could boost other stats but sapped Endurance.
Then we played and it worked really well.
Now that might be because I adlib systems all the time and have been playing Amber variants since the books were published but mostly its just common sense.
One of the best elements of the Amber engine is that is just gets out of the way. So if as a GM you can do setting, NPCs, plot and action the actual system is moot.
Quote from: jibbajibba;879964So take my Amber Star Wars
...I spent all this time thinking about Attributes I'd find suitable for SW. And I didn't play SW for long years.
Well done! ;]
Quote from: jibbajibba;879964Fin's point about experienced GM is the key.
Now that might be because I adlib systems all the time and have been playing Amber variants since the books were published but mostly its just common sense.
I am becoming more and more convinced that
common sense is experience. Weather it's plumbing or cars or role playing. Sometimes tones of experience, perhaps so much experience that you literally can not remember a time when you did not have that experience so you think it is common to all.
I did like the suggestions though. I am in two games now where it seems half the night is spent looking stuff up in books so when I run next there will be no books.
Quote from: Headless;880519I am becoming more and more convinced that common sense is experience. Weather it's plumbing or cars or role playing. Sometimes tones of experience, perhaps so much experience that you literally can not remember a time when you did not have that experience so you think it is common to all.
Ditto.
Common sense requires some foundation - you perceive certain attributes as more relevant to the game, once you understand what it's about (by default).
I mean, everyone who plays RPGs, no matter where they come from, realizes that combat is a vital part of the majority of games. So is mind, body and social stuff. Yet, to produce some proper set of attributes for any given Amber-based game, one must play it a few times. After all, it won't work that well with a dozen attributes or so, no matter how high level of precision it might deliver...