Getting the Most Out of Shapeshifting

[Panjumanju]

This is the third full Amber Diceless RPG I'm playing with mostly the same group of people. Knowing their proclivities I wanted to go a route they would not suspect. People in this group have favoured Pattern, Sorcery, Conjuration and Powerwords. So, I decided to explore Shape Changing - and in fact snagged both Advanced Shapeshifting and 1st in Endurance. Plays starts with sincerity next week.

So far, this is my scheme - I've worked it out with the GM to outbid other player characters on their Amber allies, such that I show up instead of their supposed ally. (Which will be great fun when I'm found out later). Because me showing up as a player would give it away, I'm having the GM run the ally and then he'll tell me the conversation, and if I give him a note about the information I want he'll try to get it, with the personality of the ally. If I'm found out, well, he just calls me in to finish the conversation with the player.

This looks pretty good on paper because of Advanced Shapeshifting's ability to mask Psyche, absorb personality and all the rest of it. Of course it is only a matter of time before it comes crashing down, but I have hope.

Basically, I'm trying to see if I can pull off a Ganelon.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

//Panjumanju

[jibbajibba]

This is the third full Amber Diceless RPG I'm playing with mostly the same group of people. Knowing their proclivities I wanted to go a route they would not suspect. People in this group have favoured Pattern, Sorcery, Conjuration and Powerwords. So, I decided to explore Shape Changing - and in fact snagged both Advanced Shapeshifting and 1st in Endurance. Plays starts with sincerity next week.

So far, this is my scheme - I've worked it out with the GM to outbid other player characters on their Amber allies, such that I show up instead of their supposed ally. (Which will be great fun when I'm found out later). Because me showing up as a player would give it away, I'm having the GM run the ally and then he'll tell me the conversation, and if I give him a note about the information I want he'll try to get it, with the personality of the ally. If I'm found out, well, he just calls me in to finish the conversation with the player.

This looks pretty good on paper because of Advanced Shapeshifting's ability to mask Psyche, absorb personality and all the rest of it. Of course it is only a matter of time before it comes crashing down, but I have hope.

Basically, I'm trying to see if I can pull off a Ganelon.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

//Panjumanju

plenty

to start off with you have to remember that Shapeshift is the fundermental Power of the universe. The Universe itself is only the form it takes becuase trumps of it have been drawn to give it oprder these are the Pattern and the Logrus. Without these all the universe woudl be constantly shapeshifting and reforming. Characters are all essentially shapeshifting agregates. They take the form you see only because trumps of them have been drawn which used the psyche of the pattern or Logrus to force them into a set shape. the healing power of Amberites for example is just an expression of their basic shapless selves an inherent uncontrolled shapeshift to recover and grow back.

Now that being said what can you do with shapeshift. I have allowed several PCs to take Shapeshift a lot futher and in doing so peel off elements of themselves with which they have a psychic link and allow those elemnts independedt actions, as shadow-creatures, items or whatever. One PC had a sword that was a shapeshifted elemtns of themselves for example.
Shapeshifters are the perfect spies obviously, not just taking on the shape and form of others but to disguise themselves as rugs, walls or even whole rooms. They are also masters of misdirection Yggrasil appears to you and gives you a message you are goign to take it seriously, A dark wizard that looks a bit like Dworkin starts screaming for help through a wall which warps just enough to look like the tried to  come through a trump..
the secret of the latter strategy of course if to make any misdirection cryptic all assistance in Amber is cryptic if you give a crytpic clue or a ridle to another PC you want to get out of the way for a bit ....
Combine Ad Shapeshift with Sorcery to turn opponents into frogs, or hatstands, or whatever.
Combat, think Terminator 2 crossed with Attack of the mutant 20 foot Octopoides. Praticalities think Mr Fantastic. Correctly deployed shapeshifters should be able to dominate any combat and if you are loosing then you should have shifted into something with higher Warfare so its your own fault

[RPGPundit]

That's a fairly clever and sophisticated technique your GM is using to handle this; I'll be very curious to see how it works out in terms of communication between you and him, and if you (and the GM) feel satisfied with how it works.

RPGPundit

[Brent Not Broken]

to start off with you have to remember that Shapeshift is the fundermental Power of the universe. The Universe itself is only the form it takes becuase trumps of it have been drawn to give it oprder these are the Pattern and the Logrus. Without these all the universe woudl be constantly shapeshifting and reforming. Characters are all essentially shapeshifting agregates. They take the form you see only because trumps of them have been drawn which used the psyche of the pattern or Logrus to force them into a set shape. the healing power of Amberites for example is just an expression of their basic shapless selves an inherent uncontrolled shapeshift to recover and grow back.

When you put it like this, Trump and Shapeshifting start to look as staunchly opposed as the Pattern and Logrus always have.

If you think of Trump in terms of artistic representations that get so precisely to the heart of their subjects that they essentially are their subjects in some way (to the point that a formless universe is given shape and substance by two Trump images of how that universe ought to be), that's got to come into a conflict with a Shapeshifting "people and things are whatever's most convenient in the moment" point of view.

[Panjumanju]

When you put it like this, Trump and Shapeshifting start to look as staunchly opposed as the Pattern and Logrus always have.

If you think of Trump in terms of artistic representations that get so precisely to the heart of their subjects that they essentially are their subjects in some way (to the point that a formless universe is given shape and substance by two Trump images of how that universe ought to be), that's got to come into a conflict with a Shapeshifting "people and things are whatever's most convenient in the moment" point of view.

Or perhaps, but your own definition, Trump and Shapeshifting simply oppose and compliment each other like Patter and Logrus. That's an interesting thought.

//Panjumanju

[jibbajibba]

When you put it like this, Trump and Shapeshifting start to look as staunchly opposed as the Pattern and Logrus always have.

If you think of Trump in terms of artistic representations that get so precisely to the heart of their subjects that they essentially are their subjects in some way (to the point that a formless universe is given shape and substance by two Trump images of how that universe ought to be), that's got to come into a conflict with a Shapeshifting "people and things are whatever's most convenient in the moment" point of view.

not bad

I like the idea that Trump forces something into a certain form and ties down shapeshift. A bit like a quantum mechanics test, it can be any form until you draw it.

I always wondered what is on a trump of a shapeshifter by the way.

[Brent Not Broken]

The quantum mechanics angle is pretty cool.

I don't think Trumps of shapeshifters need to be made complicated; there are clearly shapeshifters in the novels who have perfectly functional Trumps. (Presumably they just depict any of that individual's forms, or possibly the "best", "truest", or most comfortable of those forms.)

I think that even if we consider the Logrus and Pattern as "Trumps of the universe", they're pretty clearly on a different order of magnitude than these little playing-card trinkets people are sketching out. Materials are also a consideration. The Pattern's drawn with the Jewel of Judgment, which is poorly understood but obviously some kind of Very Big Deal, and it's anybody's guess where the Logrus came from. I think it's totally fine to differentiate the Pattern and Logrus from "lesser Trumps" in terms of effects without having to abandon this whole line of discussion.

Actually, it makes me wonder even more about the Jewel of Judgment. The Pattern is derived from the Jewel. The Logrus is derived from ? (if anything). Potentially the Jewel also, if you believe the Logrus was created by the Serpent (since the Jewel is the Serpent's Eye). Maybe the Jewel is (ultimately, indirectly) the source of all Trump power; fitting, perhaps, for an image-based power to find its source in an Eye.

So, does this create any interesting conflicts in terms of the Serpent itself? It's the emblem of Chaos, but its Eye is (maybe) the source of a power, Trump, that restricts Chaos by defining it and giving it structure and boundaries?

[Panjumanju]

The quantum mechanics angle is pretty cool.

I don't think Trumps of shapeshifters need to be made complicated; there are clearly shapeshifters in the novels who have perfectly functional Trumps. (Presumably they just depict any of that individual's forms, or possibly the "best", "truest", or most comfortable of those forms.)

I think that even if we consider the Logrus and Pattern as "Trumps of the universe", they're pretty clearly on a different order of magnitude than these little playing-card trinkets people are sketching out. Materials are also a consideration. The Pattern's drawn with the Jewel of Judgment, which is poorly understood but obviously some kind of Very Big Deal, and it's anybody's guess where the Logrus came from. I think it's totally fine to differentiate the Pattern and Logrus from "lesser Trumps" in terms of effects without having to abandon this whole line of discussion.

Actually, it makes me wonder even more about the Jewel of Judgment. The Pattern is derived from the Jewel. The Logrus is derived from ? (if anything). Potentially the Jewel also, if you believe the Logrus was created by the Serpent (since the Jewel is the Serpent's Eye). Maybe the Jewel is (ultimately, indirectly) the source of all Trump power; fitting, perhaps, for an image-based power to find its source in an Eye.

So, does this create any interesting conflicts in terms of the Serpent itself? It's the emblem of Chaos, but its Eye is (maybe) the source of a power, Trump, that restricts Chaos by defining it and giving it structure and boundaries?

I always thought of the jewel as the blueprint of the pattern. Oh, the pattern's all messed up? Let's get out the blueprints again. Of course, it's slightly more complicated than that - but I always considered it a guide for the formation of the pattern, rather than some crazy power source itself. That the jewel was swiped from the Logrus (and the Logrus continues to operate) I always imagined meant there was some kind of pattern at the heart of the chaos, and all things were in their way balanced - until Dworkin separated them into two beings, a Pattern and a Chaos, using that spark of order (the jewel) to create a pattern.

This is all speculation.

//Panjumanju

[Panjumanju]

That's a fairly clever and sophisticated technique your GM is using to handle this; I'll be very curious to see how it works out in terms of communication between you and him, and if you (and the GM) feel satisfied with how it works.

RPGPundit

As an update, we're approaching our 20th session of this particular Amber game, and I've managed to maintain secrecy of my shapeshifting power. I'm not sure how I've gotten away with this. The GM and I have used a combination of note passing and gestures such that he may enact my wishes when I am shapeshifted into an NPC in the room.

As characters this group is working together and getting along very well for Amberites. My layers and layers of secrecy makes me feel like I should perhaps betray and kill them all, but only because I'm in something of a position to do so.

//Panjumanju

[RPGPundit]

As an update, we're approaching our 20th session of this particular Amber game, and I've managed to maintain secrecy of my shapeshifting power. I'm not sure how I've gotten away with this. The GM and I have used a combination of note passing and gestures such that he may enact my wishes when I am shapeshifted into an NPC in the room.

As characters this group is working together and getting along very well for Amberites. My layers and layers of secrecy makes me feel like I should perhaps betray and kill them all, but only because I'm in something of a position to do so.

//Panjumanju

Bide your time and then strike!

RPGPundit

[finarvyn]

I always wondered what is on a trump of a shapeshifter by the way.

My thought is that the image on the Trump would be the last image of the character when he/she was last being contacted. E.g. if the person looked green with blue hair, that image would stay there until the next time the Trump was used.

[Sydius Mendoza]

My thought is that the image on the Trump would be the last image of the character when he/she was last being contacted. E.g. if the person looked green with blue hair, that image would stay there until the next time the Trump was used.

That doesn't scan right, IMO. By that rationale, the trump for Oberon would have shown Ganelon for a good portion of the Corwin series. I kind of imagine it to be the other way around. Trump would represent the true form, or at the very least default form, if you will.

[Panjumanju]

That doesn't scan right, IMO. By that rationale, the trump for Oberon would have shown Ganelon for a good portion of the Corwin series. I kind of imagine it to be the other way around. Trump would represent the true form, or at the very least default form, if you will.

But in many cases it was established that "true form" is a pretty dicey (no pun intended) term.

Presumably both Oberon and Dworkin have Chaos forms, and it was never truly established which form - Chaos or human, strikes more 'true'. In formal occasions, like funerals, the denizens of Choas assume their demonic appearances. It is unclear, from the Merlin cycle, what they consider their true form to be.

Further, what if you have changed clothes, or cut your hair? What if you shave your beard off and all your trumps don't work? (Do Amberites even grow facial hair when they don't want to? Seriously, how come everyone does not have beards.)

I think the image of the trump drawn is some kind of underlying image, not a visual representation. It's the only answer I can see.

//Panjumanju

[Sydius Mendoza]

But in many cases it was established that "true form" is a pretty dicey (no pun intended) term.

Presumably both Oberon and Dworkin have Chaos forms, and it was never truly established which form - Chaos or human, strikes more 'true'. In formal occasions, like funerals, the denizens of Choas assume their demonic appearances. It is unclear, from the Merlin cycle, what they consider their true form to be.

Further, what if you have changed clothes, or cut your hair? What if you shave your beard off and all your trumps don't work? (Do Amberites even grow facial hair when they don't want to? Seriously, how come everyone does not have beards.)

I think the image of the trump drawn is some kind of underlying image, not a visual representation. It's the only answer I can see.

//Panjumanju

Perhaps the word 'form' is the issue here. I tend to think of the Trump to be a representation of Amberite or Chaosite essence. The Trump doesn't change or stop working because a Prince or Princess is wearing something other than the clothes depicted in the trump. Corwin was bearded and somewhat emaciated at the end of book 1/ beginning of book 2, and still had to actively block trump contact once Eric and Co. realized that he had escaped.

[Panjumanju]

Perhaps the word 'form' is the issue here. I tend to think of the Trump to be a representation of Amberite or Chaosite essence. The Trump doesn't change or stop working because a Prince or Princess is wearing something other than the clothes depicted in the trump. Corwin was bearded and somewhat emaciated at the end of book 1/ beginning of book 2, and still had to actively block trump contact once Eric and Co. realized that he had escaped.

That's essentially what I just said. I was agreeing with you, I just didn't say it very well.

Trump captures essence. QED. It must. That's easy....but the facial hair issue is a much bigger deal for me.

Facial hair is a complicated and oft-overlooked issue in Zelazny's Amber. It took Corwin 3 years to grow that beard. Seriously, read the thing again keeping track of the implied time passing from Corwin's perspective, no mention of shaving (even as Zelazny often considers food and sleep) and yet he remains clean shaven, save for when he was imprisoned 3 years.

Amberite ability: slower beard growth.

We know the Amberites are descended from Chaoisites and therefore the potential for shapeshifting resides within them - is this a minor side effect, like slower (or as some people believe a 'perspective') ageing?

And yet all this does not seriously interfere with trump. So, we solved trump....but beards are still perplexing.

//Panjumanju