It astounds me how much this is still an issue for some gamers. Gamers really love their dice...
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Quote from: RPGPundit;283802It astounds me how much this is still an issue for some gamers. Gamers really love their dice...
Could be one of any number of reasons. It's possible some players feel that "playing pretend" is for children and the presence of dice "protects" them and makes their game "adult". Others may fear or dislike what they see as pure GM fiat and again feel "protected" by the dice. Still others may enjoy the randomness dice introduce.
Quote from: Corvus;283885Others may fear or dislike what they see as pure GM fiat and again feel "protected" by the dice. Still others may enjoy the randomness dice introduce.
I always found the protection from GM fiat a weak argument. The GM can dick you over regardless if dice are used or not. If you feel the GM does that, why continue playing that game?
I don't use much dice when I game, which puts me at odds with most gamers I know. Many games have the dice rolling like it's going out of style or it's a craps game in a Vegas casino. This breaks down to personal preference. At the rate I'm going I might GM totally diceless within a few years. I don't mind dice rolling, but I get bored with the rolling quickly - it's why I can't handle D&D dungeon crawls, or any die pool system that uses more than 5 dice, or any game where everything is decided by the roll of the dice. Dice are fine and dandy, but I want to role-play more than I want to dice play.
I think it comes down to the actual number of diceless games around. By diceless, do you also include those RPGs that chose the route of using playing cards as being diceless as well?
Following on from this, you could say the diceless gaming is a minority spinoff from the RPG game because not only are there so few games, but of those most are poorly executed.
I have no particular beef against diceless, as long there are some rules. That said, I like to roll dice.
Quote from: Jason Coplen;283893I always found the protection from GM fiat a weak argument. The GM can dick you over regardless if dice are used or not. If you feel the GM does that, why continue playing that game?
I agree, it is a weak argument, but I've heard it numerous times from people who aren't willing to hear other opinions on the subject. Most recently from my last gaming group. Thankfully my new group seem much more trusting and openminded.
Quote from: Corvus;284528I agree, it is a weak argument, but I've heard it numerous times from people who aren't willing to hear other opinions on the subject. Most recently from my last gaming group. Thankfully my new group seem much more trusting and openminded.
Congrats on the new group! :D
Quote from: RPGPundit;283802Gamers really love their dice...
Of course. A roleplaying game without dice is like a porno without a money-shot. It's still what it is, but there's something missing.
Once you take away the dice you may as well put on a leotard and do improv theatre.
You've got a heckuva deathwish ;)
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;284565Of course. A roleplaying game without dice is like a porno without a money-shot. It's still what it is, but there's something missing.
Once you take away the dice you may as well put on a leotard and do improv theatre.
Haven't seen you around in a while, Kyle.
Amber is sort of like doing Improv Theatre... in the Borgia Court.
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O_O
Incredible.
I would have sweared you would tear him to shreads and call him a swine and all :D
I like rolling dice. Sometimes because I like the randomness, and sometimes just because I think rolling dice is fun.
That's part of the reason so many late 60s and early 70s games, not only D&D but such wargames as Chainmail, DGUTS, Tractics, and others, have such various kludgy dice rolling systems.
Rolling dice is fun, and rolling dice in weird ways at various times is more fun.
Quote from: Croaker;284793O_O
Incredible.
I would have sweared you would tear him to shreads and call him a swine and all :D
Nah, I know Kyle, and he's not a Swine. He was just trying to troll/joke with us.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Old Geezer;284809I like rolling dice. Sometimes because I like the randomness, and sometimes just because I think rolling dice is fun.
That's part of the reason so many late 60s and early 70s games, not only D&D but such wargames as Chainmail, DGUTS, Tractics, and others, have such various kludgy dice rolling systems.
Rolling dice is fun, and rolling dice in weird ways at various times is more fun.
I LOVE dice, but Amber as a game is also brilliant and you don't miss the dice after about the first ten minutes. My players have often said that after playing a session of Amber for an hour or two, they just plain forget that other RPGs use dice.
On a related note, I think another problem that has emerged lately is that people who've tried "diceless" games other than Amber could have been scared off by that too, since pretty well every other diceless game I've seen is really pretty sub-par.
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Upon meeting Amber for the first time, you can separate players in two categories:
1) Those who played RPGs before.
2) Those who didn't.
The first group is used to rolling dice or similar mechanics. Of course they are going to be puzzled by Amber. It's like the first time people meet an electric car, having used combustion-engine cars all their lives up until that moment: Where's the gas tank? Why is the engine so silent? How the hell is this car working?
Once people understand how things work in the new car and take it for a test drive or two, fear of the unknown vanishes. The same thing happens with Amber.
The second group is a minority, and I suspect they have an easier time accepting the game mechanics. You are giving a teenager the keys to his first car! Who the hell cares how the engine works!?
Of course, some rookies think they are Michael Schumacher and crash their shiny Amber car into a tree at 100 MPH, but flaming wrecks are not the point of this post... ;)
Other than AMBER what other 100% diceless RPG is there?
Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;285738Other than AMBER what other 100% diceless RPG is there?
Nobilis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobilis),
Marvel Universe RPG,
Active Exploits, and a few other titles here and there. Of course, if you include card-based games as well, the list is quite a bit longer.
ok WOW Guess I have been in an RPG cave somewhere. During my search for info on Diceless games and Amber in particular I found the sad news about Eric Wujcik's passing. I will type up a lengthy posting on his OBIT site but for a simple sum up; Eric and Palladium games was the catalyst for propelling me into Gaming, Art, Writing, and Story Telling in general. TMNT and Heroes Unlimited brought together all the things I thought were "NEAT" into a hobby er PASSION that keeps me going twenty years later. For my love of all things Gaming I have Eric to thank too bad I never got to tell him personally.
Sorry about sticking this into the wrong forum topic, but i figured it has been so long since his passing that no one would have read it in the right one.
BTW I have been toying with a diceless game for some time I will have to revisit Eric's Amber for some helpful hints toward what I want to accomplish. If I can find a copy... Even the Torrents are dry. sigh.. guess its "drive through RPG"
Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;285755Sorry about sticking this into the wrong forum topic, but i figured it has been so long since his passing that no one would have read it in the right one.
Well, there's a sticky thread on that topic at the top of this forum, in case you happened to miss it.
Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;285755If I can find a copy... Even the Torrents are dry. sigh.. guess its "drive through RPG"
I managed to find a copy to torrent, but it was tough and took forever. Now that I've had a chance to look it over, though, I think I'm going to spend the money and find an actual book copy.
Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;285738Other than AMBER what other 100% diceless RPG is there?
None that are any good.
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Dudes, save yourself time and effort, and just get the PDF legitimately. Its DEFINITELY worth whatever tiny price they're charging!
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Quote from: RPGPundit;285883Dudes, save yourself time and effort, and just get the PDF legitimately. Its DEFINITELY worth whatever tiny price they're charging!
RPGPundit
Oh, I agree, especially now that I've seen it and gotten to know how cool it is. It's just that about the time I decided I wanted it my car threw a timing belt and I was more than a little short on cash-- scraping for necessities, couldn't really justify any expense that was not one. And I'm a terribly impatient person, so I went ahead and downloaded it. Now that I've got it, as I said, I'm seriously thinking about spending the money to find a real copy. Totally worth it.
Quote from: RPGPundit;285881None that are any good.
*cough*
Opinions differ on that, naturally enough.
Quote from: GrimGent;285951*cough*
Opinions differ on that, naturally enough.
Yes, there is a spectrum of opinion, beginning at "My opinion" and ending at "the wrong opinion".
RPGPundit
Agreed. I never understood how people could not realize that anything other than my opinion was wrong or, at best, misguided.
Quote from: RPGPundit;286098Yes, there is a spectrum of opinion, beginning at "My opinion" and ending at "the wrong opinion".
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My
Everway box's opinion is that you're full of it. I have no personal opinion on the matter, though, tends to be safer on the internet that way.
Everway isn't diceless in the strictest sense; but ok, if you really wanted to include it, we'll say Everway is an exception as a game that's not bad. Its not GREAT, either, mainly because of a few choices the author made that sent it too far into dirty-smelly-hippie land, but its not bad.
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I think what is missing in the whole "which diceless game is better" argument is the notion that
1. Erick did it first
2. Erick had a master plan about how to balance the game
3. Erick made his game simple.
Most of the diceless games out there take advantage of what he did and try to springboard off of the concept. When ADRP first came out, nobody really thought that a diceless game would work. Now it's an accepted niche among the RPG market.
1. When Erick put ADRP together, there was no model from which to pattern his design. If the game is flawed (and I really like it the way it is) then it would be a result of him being such a pioneer in the gaming industry. Yet it's a very versitile system, and one I've used to run fantasy, modern, and space games in addition to the standard Amber universe.
2. Game balance in ADRP is quite amazing, in my opinion. Having characters balance the points is wonderful because (if the GM runs the game correctly) players really can't min/max the system. Spending a lot of points on something hopefully gives a great benefit, and skimping on the points gives almost nothing. The game balance automatically corrects itself.
3. At its roots, ADRP is very simple. Four basic stats. A few key powers to buy. One hundred points to spend. Other games try to incorporate layers of complexity which really aren't needed. You don't need to sub-divide stats, but you can. You don't need to use standard, advanced, and exalted powers, but you can. The game is so simple in concept that you can build any extras onto the core framework.
That's why I like Amber, and why I'm not as big a fan of the other Diceless games. Many of the other games seem to add layers of terminology and complexity that I don't need or want in my campaign. Many of the other games seem to be constructed specifically for a specific campaign world, which I might not want to run. Nobilis, for example, just seems confusing in its verbiage (and I own both 1E and 2E along with the LARP version just to give it an honest try).
Anyway, just my two cents.
Quote from: finarvyn;287044I think what is missing in the whole "which diceless game is better" argument is the notion that
1. Erick did it first
2. Erick had a master plan about how to balance the game
3. Erick made his game simple.
Most of the diceless games out there take advantage of what he did and try to springboard off of the concept. When ADRP first came out, nobody really thought that a diceless game would work. Now it's an accepted niche among the RPG market.
1. When Erick put ADRP together, there was no model from which to pattern his design. If the game is flawed (and I really like it the way it is) then it would be a result of him being such a pioneer in the gaming industry. Yet it's a very versitile system, and one I've used to run fantasy, modern, and space games in addition to the standard Amber universe.
2. Game balance in ADRP is quite amazing, in my opinion. Having characters balance the points is wonderful because (if the GM runs the game correctly) players really can't min/max the system. Spending a lot of points on something hopefully gives a great benefit, and skimping on the points gives almost nothing. The game balance automatically corrects itself.
3. At its roots, ADRP is very simple. Four basic stats. A few key powers to buy. One hundred points to spend. Other games try to incorporate layers of complexity which really aren't needed. You don't need to sub-divide stats, but you can. You don't need to use standard, advanced, and exalted powers, but you can. The game is so simple in concept that you can build any extras onto the core framework.
That's why I like Amber, and why I'm not as big a fan of the other Diceless games. Many of the other games seem to add layers of terminology and complexity that I don't need or want in my campaign. Many of the other games seem to be constructed specifically for a specific campaign world, which I might not want to run. Nobilis, for example, just seems confusing in its verbiage (and I own both 1E and 2E along with the LARP version just to give it an honest try).
Anyway, just my two cents.
I agree with everything you said here.
RPGPundit
Quote from: finarvyn;287044Many of the other games seem to be constructed specifically for a specific campaign world, which I might not want to run.
That's hardly limited to diceless games, however. Personally, I'm not too fond of generic RPGs in general, and prefer mechanics which are more firmly connected to the setting itself. Again, tastes vary.
Quote from: GrimGent;287103That's hardly limited to diceless games, however. Personally, I'm not too fond of generic RPGs in general, and prefer mechanics which are more firmly connected to the setting itself. Again, tastes vary.
Well, I can see your point and in general I tend to agree with you -- generic games often lack any sense of purpose and often lack that spark that makes me want to play them.
However, having learned about RPGs from
OD&D in the 1970's, I can say the early RPGs were designed without a specific setting in mind and they worked just fine. (I would cite OD&D, Tunnels & Trolls, Traveller, and many others of the time period.) What was different then is that these games gave players some general guidelines and turned them loose to play, whereas many modern games are designed to tie into a specific setting mostly because they are built around rules which are really specific instead of general.
Amber Diceless has this potenial flaw, since powers like "Trump" or "Pattern" or "Logrus" are clearly setting specific, but other aspects of ADRP rise above this. Shape Shifting, Power Words, Sorcery and Conjuration can be applied to any one of dozens of settings. The basic attribute-compare method of conflict resolution is not setting specific. Amber Diceless manages to keep aspects of the setting but also enough that is universal so that one can use the basic rules set in many different settings, just like OD&D. That is one of its greatest strengths as a game system.
And it's so darned simple. Or, at least it
can be played as a simple or complex game depending upon the intended audience. Erick gave examples of using the system with great detail in terms of the type of injuries sustained and the like, but I could also use his basic ideas to run games for my children when they were 6. I've seen dozens of different settings online that may vary in some details but are clearly ADRP-inspired.
So I see Amber Diceless as being both setting specific and potentially generic, if that makes any sense. :)
Yes, it does make sense, and that's a big part of what makes Amber so brilliant.
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