Getting on Gerard's Bad Side

[RPGPundit]

How much do you think one has to do to end up getting on Gerards' bad side?

Once you do, what do you think will be likely to happen to you? What will he do?
And how hard will it be to get back on his good side?

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[Nihilistic Mind]

Just look at what it took for Corwin to get on his bad side: assault Amber, kill another Amberite. (or be accused of killing another Amberite, in Corwin's case).

If Eric had killed Corwin, I wonder what Gerard would have done.

Either way, I can see how Gerard would give you a big warning and make it clear how he feels about the whole thing. Then make big threats until you change your ways.

The cool thing about the way I run Gerard in my games is that he gets stuff done... A threat from him is a very real threat and most other Amberites will back him up.

[RPGPundit]

Ok, so I think its incontrovertible that if you were to kill a family member, or threaten Amber itself, then that would get you on Gerard's bad side.
The question is whether this is the minimum you'd have to do, or if someone could get on Gerard's bad side for less: just how patient is he?

And just how forgiving?
Will he threaten you but keep giving you more chances? Will you be able to change his opinion about you? Or are you screwed once you get to the point that you've got him mad?

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[Nihilistic Mind]

I'd say the minimum would probably seem like a threat of any kind, and in that case, Gerard would likely go out of his way to threaten the person in question. The more dangerous a person appears to be, the more dangerous Gerard could be to them.

Be suspected of having killed an Amberite and expect Gerard to kill you. Kill an Amberite and expect Gerard to kill you as well. A weird 'Eye for an Eye' type thing, I suppose. Something simple and to the point for Gerard, what do you think?

Also, excessive abuse of Shadowfolks perhaps? I could see that... He might just break your arms for that, though...

And when it comes to redemption or second chances, I think it would take a lot, depending on the varying degree of the offense causing the person to be on Gerard's bad side to begin with. Showing that you can make sacrifices would be a good way to redeem yourself in his eyes, I would think.

[Malleus Arianorum]

Ok, so I think its incontrovertible that if you were to kill a family member, or threaten Amber itself, then that would get you on Gerard's bad side.
The question is whether this is the minimum you'd have to do, or if someone could get on Gerard's bad side for less: just how patient is he?

When Brand got knifed, everyone was on Gerards bad side. He suspected ALL of them. So, there's no way to exempt yourself from his bad side, you just have to clear yourself by either being the victim with or an innocent bystander with nothing to gain.  
 

And just how forgiving?
Will he threaten you but keep giving you more chances? Will you be able to change his opinion about you? Or are you screwed once you get to the point that you've got him mad?

The problem with Gerard is that once you're on his bad side, he suspects that you have an ulterior motive. And once you have an ulterior motive, then he rationalizes your every action or omission as "proof" of that ulterior motive and so on.

[Trevelyan]

Gerard seems to be a little sensitive to any suggestion that he is less intelligent than his siblings or open to manipulation. Even when he was set against Corwin, it wasn't until Corwin implied that someone else was behind his decision to fight and threaten Corwin that Gerard became genuinely angry.

[Corvus]

And yet, at least once, Gerard admits he isn't nearly the thinker Corwin and their other siblings are (it may very well have been during said brawl, I'd have to go back and check).  Perhaps it is a grudging admission, but he does say it.  So we know that he knows it to be true.

This does not mean that Gerard is actually slow or, heavens forbid, stupid, naturally.  He's just not the genius the others are.  Still, when all your brothers and sisters are brilliant and you're just normal, you tend to get a bit upset about the whole thing, so I see your point, Trevelyan.

I don't think that was what set Gerard off there, though.  It seemed to me that what got him upset was what he perceived to be Corwin blowing verbal smoke: "You're confusing things again," he says, or something very much to that effect.  Hell, it pisses ME off when people try to do that.  So I would say that dishonesty, manipulation and threat to Amber and his family are Gerard's triggers.  He seems to be very much the honorable, stand-up, straight-dealing guy of the bunch.  When it was his own family being sneaky, manipulative and murderous at each other, that had to get him in a twist.

[RPGPundit]

The problem with Gerard is that once you're on his bad side, he suspects that you have an ulterior motive. And once you have an ulterior motive, then he rationalizes your every action or omission as "proof" of that ulterior motive and so on.

Hmm, this point is a really good one! Thank you.

God, my players must dread these threads.

RPGPundit

[Trevelyan]

I don't think that was what set Gerard off there, though.  It seemed to me that what got him upset was what he perceived to be Corwin blowing verbal smoke: "You're confusing things again," he says, or something very much to that effect.  Hell, it pisses ME off when people try to do that.  So I would say that dishonesty, manipulation and threat to Amber and his family are Gerard's triggers.  He seems to be very much the honorable, stand-up, straight-dealing guy of the bunch.  When it was his own family being sneaky, manipulative and murderous at each other, that had to get him in a twist.

Since I've got a bit of time:

"I get the point," I said. "And if someone else kills you? They remove me, also. That leaves Julian, Benedict, Random, and the girls to man the barricades. Better and better-for whoever it is. Whose idea was this, really?"
"Mine! Mine alone!" he said, and I felt his grip tighten, his arms bend and grow tense.
"You are just trying to confuse things! Like you always do!" he groaned. "Things didn't go bad till you came back! Damn it, Corwin! I think it's your fault!"

While Gerard certainly doesn't like Corwin obfuscating the issue, that last dig from Corwin "Whose idea was this, really?" seems to be the tipping point. If I was a gambling man and willing to read more into Amber than I usually try to I'd suggest that Benedict was behind this little ploy, and Gerard is reacting, at least in part, to the unspoken awareness of the rest of the family that he really isn't up to this level of scheming.

Notice how his anger manifests initially in the denial that he is being led, when he starts to exclaim and tightens his grip. The comment about Corwin confusing things comes moment later once Gerard has calmed down slightly.

So while I agree that Gerard certainly finds scheming distasteful, jibes to the effect that he isn't up to playing the game seem to really push his buttons.

[Corvus]

Ah, there's the exchange I was hunting for.

Like anything in the Chronicles, I think you can take that "conversation" in different ways.  I can certainly see what you mean if I look at Corwin's last question a certain way, but it seems to fit better to me as an essential part of the smokescreen, rather than a personal thump on Gerard.  To me it's the "I've spun a web of obfuscating possibilities, and this is the way I close the deal, making sure you're thinking my way instead of yours" sentence.  Corwin throws that out as a kind of verbal finishing move, and Gerard gets royally pissed because he can see it for what it is.  He might not be able to articulate as well as Corwin, or Brand, or Julian, or even Random, but it feels to me like he can sense the trickery and it makes him angry.  He can see Corwin being manipulative and treating him like he's a common Shadow buffoon.

Of course, that lack of absolute certainty of Corwin's motives is a good thing 'round these parts, no?

Edit: Something else I thought of only after I posted.  I believe Corwin wasn't trying to snow Gerard.  I believe he misjudged Gerard and honestly felt that someone else had to be behind the confrontation.  Corwin is (perhaps rightly) paranoid, and sees wheels within wheels in every shadow.  To him, Gerard is too simple to come up with something like that on his own.  So rather than trying to bullshit his way out of a further asskicking, he was trying to get to the bottom of things.

Gerard, on the other hand, saw Corwin being a manipulative bastard, trying to baffle Gerard with a mind-fogging line of confusing possibilities.  Interpreted through his own motivations and beliefs, Corwin's "no, damn you, tell me the truth" becomes "hey, watch the red card!"  That last little bit was just the arrogant closer, "And now we will assume all the bullshit I just spewed is true!"  By this point I think Gerard was already hot enough.  I honestly don't think that last bit was what sent him over the line, I see it as only the finishing flourish.

[RPGPundit]

This is all giving me shitloads of insight. Very good, guys!

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