FUCKING slow-time/fast-time shadows...

[RPGPundit]

Ok, so just about everything can be solved by sticking yourself into a slow-time shadows.  You're all fucked up, you go there, heal completely, vacation for a couple of years, raise and train an army if you like, and when you leave its been two and a half minutes in the real world.

Meanwhile, if you want to screw someone over, you put them in a fast-time shadow with no way to get out. Even if they figure out a way to get out for themselves in a day or two, its been 8 years in the real world and by then all his allies are gone, his armies destroyed, and you've impregnated both his daughters.

For a GM, these sorts of things can be very difficult.  How does one handle them?  I mean, how to stop your players from solving EVERYTHING with fast/slow-time shadows?

RPGPundit

[mrfred]

establish it by the rules of you're version of the Amber universe: 1) can't get better than 1-to-4 or so... 2) it's very very hard to get/make such a shadow and very time consuming, 3) getting in and out is very difficult, and trumps just don't work quite right with that amount of time-shift.

or by a narrative solution: 1) the time it takes to get to/make a super fast/slow shadow puts the character out of play for an unreasable amount of time, 2) they keep getting interrupted, 3) other interested parties interfere or hijack the effort

[Otha]

Another "cost" for such shadows is to put them far from Amber, and as such unstable, subject to the interference of Chaos-side powers, and inconvenient for quick access.

[Nihilistic Mind]

What if the PCs counted on that shadow to be safe and predictable so that they would be out of danger as soon as they stepped in, and found themselves in a mess of trouble for different reasons:

-the fast time would allow millenias for the shadow to change, culturally, politically, on an evolutional level...
-it could have been discovered by other amberites/chaosians...
-it could simply have been destroyed or ravaged by shadow storms...
-the atmosphere and geography might have changed so completely that using the pattern and doing the whole shadow detail addition/subtraction game won't take you there anymore...

What else can you guys think of?

[Rel Fexive]

If they don't pay points for the Shadow in question anything can happen to it when they aren't there.  I like the "geographical and metaphysical drift" idea.

[boulet]

Sorry for the thread necromancy, but the subject has always titillated me.

As much as I like the Amber cycles there's been something very incoherent in the way time flow is explored. On one hand stuff is supposed to go fast in the court of chaos : for instance Merlin grows to be a mature boy in a very short span of time as observed by Amber dwellers. On the other hand, when Corwin goe for the first time there it happens that events precipitate in Amber and Corwin missed a lot of events in the mean time.

I don't know what to do with this incoherency. My first reaction as a GM is to leave the time flow mess alone. It complicates my game a lot and the benefit isn't worth much.

[JongWK]

Slow-time/fast-time shadows are far, far away from Amber. I wouldn't be suprised if they were right next to the Courts of Chaos. As such, they are subject to outside interference and sudden internal changes.

[boulet]

That's one possible rationalization. On the other hand Zelazny seemed to pretty much write in stone that people in the courts will always have an advantage of being able to gather troops faster than Amber IIRC. I find it difficult to reconcile with fore mentioned Corwin experience.

[RPGPundit]

That might just be because the shadows close to chaos are well known to them, so they will know which ones are ripe for using for just that purpose (ie. fast time shadows where they can quickly amass demonic armies).

RPGPundit

[jibbajibba]

I do 2 things.

Powers all take Amber time not local time. So conjuration in fast timeflow shadows is very slow for example.

Also I set a 5x max variation that can be achieved through normal means. This can be extended by a specific advanced Pattern Partial power. I would allow an advanced Pattern guy to do it in a game without partial powers but I prefer it being a specific bit of lore you have to master.

I have used this to trap players, unbeknownst to themselves, and as a GM fudge when I need to brings groups together for meta game reasons (like the time a guy is about to emigrate and I want his section of the plot to play out cleanly and need 2 other PCs to be there).

As an aside one of my players developed a new time manipulation power. It allowed him to freeze time replay scenes etc. It was interesting as he knew nothing of the Advanced Pattern Powers (I do not release the partial power list to players until they spend the points). I saw this as a special case of a power that had been developed out of a bit of shadow lore that advanced pattern users would come across in their studies, a bit like how a zoologist might eventually end up learning about how a chameloen's skin changes colour but someone that just studies how a chameleon's skin change colour will know more about that but will have no idea of how a chameleon relates to a geko or even how a chameleon's sticky tongue works.

[Malleus Arianorum]

If PCs abuse fast time, I abuse them right back.
 
Fast time shadows are dangerous places. The first time you go in, you can do whatever you please, but if you step outside, even for a moment, there's no telling what effects will spring from your actions when amplified by history. Any kids you sire could be full grown and girded for war. Any useful friends you make will be long dead and gone, but any government you establish will be waiting for your return having amplified whatever initial advantages you bestowed.
 
For example, if a player character leaves an entity with nukes, the PC is almost guarenteed a return to an atomic glass wasteland on his next visit.
 
Additionaly, any meta-problems with shadow are accellerated as well. If primal chaos is spreading through shadow, the fast time shadows will be consumed at their accelerated rate. If a flaw in the Pattern is transforming shadows in to Zombies, the fast time shadows will be the first universes to lurch, shamble and shout for "BRAINS!"

[Malleus Arianorum]

Update:
 
I've adopted a rule from Feng Shui -- anytime the game slows down a wounded man staggers through the door with a vital clue and NINJAS ATTACK!
 
So far it's worked well. One of the players bought a fast time shadow and the whole group wants to go there to rest up after the serious maiming they've recieved thus far, but between the constant NINJA! harassment, the multiple time sensitive plot leads, and their own ideas, they haven't made the time to bunker down in a fast time shadow yet.

[Spike]

Actually, the dropping into shadows to heal up and return before anyone really knew they were gone is not unlike the idea of players dropping out of the dungeon to rest and heal after every fight for D&D, with only a slight added complication in that there isn't a great excuse to have the monsters restock their lairs with new, fresh troops.

Of course, you can use similar techniques (other than the aforementioned restockage of troops) to keep it under control.  Its really an issue if the players  just get to announce 'I go to this shadow and heal and come back fully rested'... just as players will announce 'I leave the dungeon, go back to town, heal, buy new arrows, potions, scrolls and come back ready to kick much ass next week'.

Of course, as the GM you are under no obligation to let the players just narrate that they are leaving on the spur of the moment and will come back as if nothing happened but for some minor improvements to their character sheets.  If they have a special power that lets them just pop over to the shadow of their choice, the bad guys can have a power that prevents them from popping out casually, or the ability to follow them back to their secret lair...

Now, I recall that travelling to and from shadows was a process with actual steps, which means actually complications are easy to provide. Its not entirely casual, though I do also recall vaguely someone in the books doing just this (popping in and out of a shadow to heal up during a big fight).

It works the same for using a prison Shadow.  Its all well and good for the players to just 'We stick him in that slow ass Shadow over there'... but in reality the response is the same as any other game.

"Great, you plan to stick him in that Shadow over there. Okay." [Devious Smile] "As you reach out to secure your prisoner for the journey to that Shadow...."