The Amber-Gunpowder Arms Race

[jibbajibba]

Guns have only ever worked on Elders due to carelessness.  Nobody knew Rinaldo was out there, and nobody could have imagined he'd find the secret to gunpowder.

Immunity to guns costs what, 12 points?  If your campaign is set after Caine was assassinated with a rifle, you can bet most of the Elders are going to take time and find some means of protecting themselves.

Finding gunpowder is basically an investment in time and points that will be rather quickly negated by royal family members.  Sure, on an army level it will still confer an advantage, but the GM can price it to be commensurate with other point costs - perhaps it's the equivalent of Deadly Damage artifacts in enough numbers for your entire army to be supplied with them.

That is a bit of a meta-gamey answer. Amberites don't all walk round with in enamelled white armour or rings of missile prevention. Its just not very Amberish.  
Guns are the great leveller in warfare. if you use swords then the best warriors win and it takes years to train. A 12 year old can be trained to use an AK47 and mow down dozens of folks in a few seconds.

[moritheil]

That is a bit of a meta-gamey answer. Amberites don't all walk round with in enamelled white armour or rings of missile prevention. Its just not very Amberish.  

Not as such, but as they are paranoid, they do take precautions.  

"That's a lot of supposing," says Merlin to Luke at one point when they discuss plans to attack the Keep of Four Worlds.

Luke replies, "It's what separates us from the losers."

I imagine, for instance, that in the wake of an assassination by rifle, Fiona would keep a spell prepared to ward off bullets, and might cast it before appearing at public events.  Julian does actually walk around in bulletproof armor, so his behavior would probably not change too much in that respect.  I wouldn't put it past Random to import some Kevlar vests, or the like.  They don't need to show up with the full D&D gear option, but I can't see them not taking precautions.

A 12 year old can be trained to use an AK47 and mow down dozens of folks in a few seconds.

I never questioned guns giving a bonus at a military force level; rather, I suggested that without the element of surprise, guns may not be very effective against the elders.  But if you think about it, there's no reason why Random can't order Flora to import bulletproof helmets and vests for the palace guard, or figure out some way to update their body armor to incorporate Kevlar lining.  Of course, that doesn't mean they can ignore bullets entirely, but it cuts down on the effectiveness of guns, which should reduce the bonus that they would give an invading force.  There is also the matter of training the palace guard to deal with enemies that have guns.

if you use swords then the best warriors win and it takes years to train

Incidentally, this part about obviating the need for years of training is true of the crossbow as well, which is why they had such a bad reputation in medieval Europe.  In a sense, guns are merely a further refinement of that.

I'm actually beginning to wonder if guns are bad for the game for precisely the reason you just mentioned: being a master swordsman highly ranked in Warfare does little if you're sniped from 2000 meters.  Of course, if you are aware of the possibility of doing so, then the engagement turns into a tactical matter, and Warfare plays out in things like decisions about where to seek cover.  Still, if rings of missile protection are not particularly Amberish, neither is letting the same trick that felled one elder work again on the others.

So, for reasons of game balance, flavor, and the in-character paranoia and prudence of the elders, I can't see gunpowder being allowed as an "I win" development.  Of course, if you're the GM, do what you want.

[jibbajibba]

Not as such, but as they are paranoid, they do take precautions.  

"That's a lot of supposing," says Merlin to Luke at one point when they discuss plans to attack the Keep of Four Worlds.

Luke replies, "It's what separates us from the losers."

I imagine, for instance, that in the wake of an assassination by rifle, Fiona would keep a spell prepared to ward off bullets, and might cast it before appearing at public events.  Julian does actually walk around in bulletproof armor, so his behavior would probably not change too much in that respect.  I wouldn't put it past Random to import some Kevlar vests, or the like.  They don't need to show up with the full D&D gear option, but I can't see them not taking precautions.



I never questioned guns giving a bonus at a military force level; rather, I suggested that without the element of surprise, guns may not be very effective against the elders.  But if you think about it, there's no reason why Random can't order Flora to import bulletproof helmets and vests for the palace guard, or figure out some way to update their body armor to incorporate Kevlar lining.  Of course, that doesn't mean they can ignore bullets entirely, but it cuts down on the effectiveness of guns, which should reduce the bonus that they would give an invading force.  There is also the matter of training the palace guard to deal with enemies that have guns.



Incidentally, this part about obviating the need for years of training is true of the crossbow as well, which is why they had such a bad reputation in medieval Europe.  In a sense, guns are merely a further refinement of that.

I'm actually beginning to wonder if guns are bad for the game for precisely the reason you just mentioned: being a master swordsman highly ranked in Warfare does little if you're sniped from 2000 meters.  Of course, if you are aware of the possibility of doing so, then the engagement turns into a tactical matter, and Warfare plays out in things like decisions about where to seek cover.  Still, if rings of missile protection are not particularly Amberish, neither is letting the same trick that felled one elder work again on the others.

So, for reasons of game balance, flavor, and the in-character paranoia and prudence of the elders, I can't see gunpowder being allowed as an "I win" development.  Of course, if you're the GM, do what you want.

Agree on crossbows but they are a wee bit slower than 400 rounds per minute :-)

I was bieng a bit antagonistic , apologies. My point was that if I were an Amberite who had trained as a great warrior for hundreds of years I would remove the
possibility of getting blown up by a grenade or shot by a sniper if at all possible.  The most Amberish way i can see to do this is to edit the pattern I am in to not allow firearms (but I did like the idea that Random would wear a bulletproof vest on public appearances).

[gabriel_ss4u]

Agree on crossbows but they are a wee bit slower than 400 rounds per minute :-)
  The most Amberish way i can see to do this is to edit the pattern I am in to not allow firearms (but I did like the idea that Random would wear a bulletproof vest on public appearances).

That's what was done IMC... It is the easiest way to assure a wild-west free Amber. Ofcourse, the king can always edit it back with the jewel, if it is in his possession. (IMC)

(BTW, ya ever see the anime "Beserk"? He could get off that many bolts quickly... LOL)