Shadow Walking with Logrus

[jibbajibba]

Just curious as the novels and rule books seem to be at odds as to if and how a Logrus user can move through shadows.
The novels would seem to have a mixed message themselves. In the first series it seemed that Chosites were unable to move through shadow without something like the Black Road to follow. The second series of books however has Mandor and others moving through shadow with no issues.
The Rule book method of extending a tendril and then pulling yourself along it is a fair attempt at providing a tool to move through shadow with a slightly different feel to Pattern but it's not entirely satisfactory.

From a metaphysical perspective the Pattern was drawn to enforce order on reality what were scattered fragments of worlds linked by veils and ways were ordered into well defined complete shadows each separate from its neighbours. The pattern is the key to this form and so allows movement through it. The logrus then should allow you to erord this orcer and break down the walls between shadows. So in effect I like the idea of Logrus travellers tearing holes as they move through shadow leaving a trail of veils in their wake which slowly heal as hte order of the pattern reasserts itself. Where as Pattern users can move between shadows because they understand how they are organised.

This would make Logrus travel more tiring, but more akin to a hellride and so possibly faster, but it would leave a wider trail through shadow. This would seem to fit with how the Black road works in that it provided a path that removed the need to force a way through shadow but the trail left was wide and 'tore' holes through the shadows it past through.

[Stormwind]

I quite like this idea. If you extrapolate a little further, then you could say that whenever a logrus tendril is extended through shadow (fetching an item, traveling through shadow, etc ...) it creates a small tear in the fabric of the shadows. If this is done often enough, then shadows become fragmented, as would be the case near the Courts.

Thus near the pattern, shadows hold together well and heal any tears rather quickly making it more difficult(draining) to use the logrus (imagine the result of someone using Logrus in Amber castle, alarm bells and all).
Meanwhile near the Courts, shadows are fragmented and difficult to impose order upon making it more difficult(draining) to use the pattern.

This would have the beneficial effect (IMHO), of making endurance much more important when using either power closer to their opposite's home ground.

[jibbajibba]

I quite like this idea. If you extrapolate a little further, then you could say that whenever a logrus tendril is extended through shadow (fetching an item, traveling through shadow, etc ...) it creates a small tear in the fabric of the shadows. If this is done often enough, then shadows become fragmented, as would be the case near the Courts.

Thus near the pattern, shadows hold together well and heal any tears rather quickly making it more difficult(draining) to use the logrus (imagine the result of someone using Logrus in Amber castle, alarm bells and all).
Meanwhile near the Courts, shadows are fragmented and difficult to impose order upon making it more difficult(draining) to use the pattern.

This would have the beneficial effect (IMHO), of making endurance much more important when using either power closer to their opposite's home ground.

Kind of but I think using Pattern near amber is hard as well. Basically I think that it just gets harder to move between shadows the closer to are to the primal pattern. I can see that using Pattern near to Chaos is going to be hard cos it won't follow the normal rules. but defintely using Logrus near to amber will be really tricky

[Trevelyan]

Ah, you've hit one one of my pet issues with ADRPG (for those keeping track, there are many).

Just curious as the novels and rule books seem to be at odds as to if and how a Logrus user can move through shadows.

Absolutely!
 

The novels would seem to have a mixed message themselves. In the first series it seemed that Chosites were unable to move through shadow without something like the Black Road to follow. The second series of books however has Mandor and others moving through shadow with no issues.

Setting aside the fact that the original series had a much less developed concept of the Courts of Chaos and the powers of those residing there (hence inconsistancies), this one is easy enough to explain by virtue of the fact that the black road was used to move large armies at speed through shadow. It's pretty obvious that, even in the Merlin series, most Chaos inhabitants weren't masters of the Logrus and needed just as much help moving through Shadow as did the armies of Amber. Those senior members of the more important houses who have traversed the Logrus are perfectly able to wander around in Shadow when the mood takes them.

The Rule book method of extending a tendril and then pulling yourself along it is a fair attempt at providing a tool to move through shadow with a slightly different feel to Pattern but it's not entirely satisfactory.

I agree entirely. Not only is it unsatisfactory, it also has zero support in the novels. Whenever Logrus masters talk about travelling through shadow, they refer to it as 'walking', and generally approach it form the same angle as do Amberites in the first series. Walking may be a term of convenience for what is really 'dragging' but I personally see no reason to assume that Logrus users don't essentally perform the same mental addition/subtraction tricks as Pattern initiates, and there is modest evidence to support the argument that this is the case.

From a metaphysical perspective the Pattern was drawn to enforce order on reality what were scattered fragments of worlds linked by veils and ways were ordered into well defined complete shadows each separate from its neighbours. The pattern is the key to this form and so allows movement through it. The logrus then should allow you to erord this order and break down the walls between shadows. So in effect I like the idea of Logrus travellers tearing holes as they move through shadow leaving a trail of veils in their wake which slowly heal as hte order of the pattern reasserts itself. Where as Pattern users can move between shadows because they understand how they are organised.

From a purely metaphysical perspective, I quite like that idea. From a practical perspective, I don't think it results in any functional difference between Pattern and Logrus shadow travel. Leaving a trail of veils behind oneself is really no different that whatever breaks in shadow allow a Pattern initiate to be followed through Shadow.

This would make Logrus travel more tiring, but more akin to a hellride and so possibly faster, but it would leave a wider trail through shadow. This would seem to fit with how the Black road works in that it provided a path that removed the need to force a way through shadow but the trail left was wide and 'tore' holes through the shadows it past through.

I'd say that it allows for the same variations in travel speed with Logrus as you get with Pattern. A Pattern user can travel slowly, making subtle changes which result in a path which is harder to track, or can travel quickly, amking faster changes but leaving a more obvious trail. Corwin essentially explains this to Ganelon in Gun of Avalon. If you assume that  Logrus user can travel quickly through Shadow leaving a wide trail much like a hellriding Amberite then why not assume that they can equally take a slower route, opening smaller breaks between more proximate shadows that are less tiring to create and quicker to close?

In practice this is the same as Pattern travel, but it opens up some interesting nuances for those characters who like to delve deeper into the metaphysics.

[jibbajibba]

Ah, you've hit one one of my pet issues with ADRPG (for those keeping track, there are many).


Absolutely!
 

Setting aside the fact that the original series had a much less developed concept of the Courts of Chaos and the powers of those residing there (hence inconsistancies), this one is easy enough to explain by virtue of the fact that the black road was used to move large armies at speed through shadow. It's pretty obvious that, even in the Merlin series, most Chaos inhabitants weren't masters of the Logrus and needed just as much help moving through Shadow as did the armies of Amber. Those senior members of the more important houses who have traversed the Logrus are perfectly able to wander around in Shadow when the mood takes them.


I agree entirely. Not only is it unsatisfactory, it also has zero support in the novels. Whenever Logrus masters talk about travelling through shadow, they refer to it as 'walking', and generally approach it form the same angle as do Amberites in the first series. Walking may be a term of convenience for what is really 'dragging' but I personally see no reason to assume that Logrus users don't essentally perform the same mental addition/subtraction tricks as Pattern initiates, and there is modest evidence to support the argument that this is the case.


From a purely metaphysical perspective, I quite like that idea. From a practical perspective, I don't think it results in any functional difference between Pattern and Logrus shadow travel. Leaving a trail of veils behind oneself is really no different that whatever breaks in shadow allow a Pattern initiate to be followed through Shadow.


I'd say that it allows for the same variations in travel speed with Logrus as you get with Pattern. A Pattern user can travel slowly, making subtle changes which result in a path which is harder to track, or can travel quickly, amking faster changes but leaving a more obvious trail. Corwin essentially explains this to Ganelon in Gun of Avalon. If you assume that  Logrus user can travel quickly through Shadow leaving a wide trail much like a hellriding Amberite then why not assume that they can equally take a slower route, opening smaller breaks between more proximate shadows that are less tiring to create and quicker to close?

In practice this is the same as Pattern travel, but it opens up some interesting nuances for those characters who like to delve deeper into the metaphysics.

Yeah I was aiming at a similar effect with a different flavour. So you wouldn't need to add a flower and slowly colour the sky pink, you would round a tree and the world woudl be changed.

I had an idea that the viel would be less obvious and less tiring if you tied it to a portal, archway, door etc. This kind of ties a vague link in my mind to Gaiman's Neverwhere and would be interesting because it would encourage Logrus users to shadow walk inside. So Logrus walking via a series of rooms, corridors, archways , through a library, out into a shaded courtyard past a sleeping guard and into a kitchen that emerged on the top floor of a penthouse in Manhattan.

I don't think the black road allowed fast travel through shadow though as it took what 3 years to reach Amber .... not exactly rocketing were they

[Rook]

I look upon it this way, the Pattern is based upon structure, a pattern, if you will, which is solid, real and can't be changed.  This is why one cannot shift reality when one is actually in Amber. I believe that when a Pattern user shifts shadows, what they are essentially doing is simply rearranging various aspects of this pattern.  Thus there is no real violation of the rule as there is no real change taking place.  Nothing "new" is being introduced.  

We get a sense of this when in the first series, Corwin describes how all Amberites reach a point where they simply cannot go further.  He seems ascribes it to a finite imagination.  I think perhaps it is simply that the Pattern is no more able to imagine something not already part of it's design then humans can imagine a 5th dimension and what it would look like.

Conversely, the Logrus is ever shifting entropy.  It lacks pattern and thus touches on all shadows, always waiting to fill a vacuum.  When a Lord of Chaos travels shadow via Logrus--and I am in agreement that only the Lords are generally allowed to attempt the test of the Logrus, thus the need of the Black Road to move armies--I have no issue with them standing still and having the shadow they desire move to them.  One might even make comparisons to the ethereal voids hypothisized in M-theory (a sub-theory of string theory) through which the universe carrying membranes drift.  Of course we consider this void in spatial terms with localized points of contact.  The Logrus traveller would see all points in Shadow touching simultaneously.  Hence, they have no need to "move" anywhere within a space-time dimension.

Of course this theory works quite well for the source of the Trumps power of locomotion as well.  However, I see the trumps as utilizing an aspect of quantum entanglement.  The theory (already proven with electrons and photons) that matter can inhabit multiple places simultaneously and communicate at faster then light speeds.  Also neatly tying the trumps into quantum theory is the issue of wave function collapse.  By observing something, one forces that something into a particular state of being.  It's a loose connection I'll grant you, but the seeds are there.

[jibbajibba]

I look upon it this way, the Pattern is based upon structure, a pattern, if you will, which is solid, real and can't be changed.  This is why one cannot shift reality when one is actually in Amber. I believe that when a Pattern user shifts shadows, what they are essentially doing is simply rearranging various aspects of this pattern.  Thus there is no real violation of the rule as there is no real change taking place.  Nothing "new" is being introduced.  

We get a sense of this when in the first series, Corwin describes how all Amberites reach a point where they simply cannot go further.  He seems ascribes it to a finite imagination.  I think perhaps it is simply that the Pattern is no more able to imagine something not already part of it's design then humans can imagine a 5th dimension and what it would look like.

Conversely, the Logrus is ever shifting entropy.  It lacks pattern and thus touches on all shadows, always waiting to fill a vacuum.  When a Lord of Chaos travels shadow via Logrus--and I am in agreement that only the Lords are generally allowed to attempt the test of the Logrus, thus the need of the Black Road to move armies--I have no issue with them standing still and having the shadow they desire move to them.  One might even make comparisons to the ethereal voids hypothisized in M-theory (a sub-theory of string theory) through which the universe carrying membranes drift.  Of course we consider this void in spatial terms with localized points of contact.  The Logrus traveller would see all points in Shadow touching simultaneously.  Hence, they have no need to "move" anywhere within a space-time dimension.

Of course this theory works quite well for the source of the Trumps power of locomotion as well.  However, I see the trumps as utilizing an aspect of quantum entanglement.  The theory (already proven with electrons and photons) that matter can inhabit multiple places simultaneously and communicate at faster then light speeds.  Also neatly tying the trumps into quantum theory is the issue of wave function collapse.  By observing something, one forces that something into a particular state of being.  It's a loose connection I'll grant you, but the seeds are there.

I agree that you can run it that way and there is even a spot of real world logic we can apply but... it doesn't seem to be that way in the books and more importantly in game play its a poor mechanic. What I mean bu that is a shadow chase where the runner is using Pattern is an exciting in game thing whereas a guy sitting in a chair using logrus even if he is doing it whilst someone hacks through the door to their appartment, isn't fun gamewise.
So I was looking for a solution that was like pattern but not pattern that had a different flavour but still enabled exciting shadow chases

[Rook]

I see your point, and in the game I am currently running, the Logrus travellers still move from their own perspective.  They cast out their tendrils and latch onto the shadow they want then rather then draw it in towards them, they instead reel themselves in towards it.  Much like standing upon a moving walkway that whizzes one through shadow until they reach their point of destination.  It's all perspective really, but just as in travelling via Pattern, one can move slowly and safely or fast and loose (e.g. a Hellride).  In both instances, as a runner I am describing the shadows as they pass by the travelling player.

And of course, if a Logrus user were being pursued, actual spatial movement whilst traveling via Logrus is usually a good thing.  Sure, they could stand still and let their tendril draw them at a more leisurely pace towards their destination, but not only does that tend to play havoc with steeds, it is also easier to put spatial distance between themselves and their pursuer if their pursuer also has the ability to travel through shadow.  Going back to the moving walk-way example, if we are both standing on it, we are both moving, but if your are chasing me and running on that platform, I'd be rather foolish to stand still.

In the end, I ascribe the differences more to the character's limitations of only being able to to perceive 4 dimensions which have over time led to one side building up a belief system that travel is achieved via one mode of locomotion and the other side believing it is easiest to achieve it via another mode.  From the standpoint of shadow itself, one is likely the same as the other.  Perhaps it was coming to grips with all the universal truths which put Dworkin on the road to insanity.

Anyway, from an OOC perspective, you are right.  We do need to interpret it in a fashion that best lends itself to the enjoyment of the players.  So towards that goal, thats how I do it.

[Trevelyan]

So I was looking for a solution that was like pattern but not pattern that had a different flavour but still enabled exciting shadow chases

I'd say, based on our earlier speculation, that one way to do it might be to suggest that, while Pattern and Logrus both enable the user to shadow walk and hellride, the effort required is inverted. Where a Pattern user can stroll casually through shadow with minimal effort but finds rapid travel draining, a Logrus user might be able to rip through shadow veils rapidly with considerable ease, but find more nuanced travel between close Shadows to be tiring.

In a chase, the Pattern user might need to strike a balance between moving fast enough to evade capture butslow enough that the Logrus user might miss him entirely (effectively 'overshooting' the Amberite).

A fleeing Chaosite might be able to hellride with ease, but doing so leaves an obvious trail which the Amberite could follow at his leisure (and I'd suggest that hellriding along in someone's wake is considerably less tiring than forging one's own way), so the Logrus user must temper his speed somewhat.

Ultimately, both travellers would need to find a moderate speed, or mix bursts of hellriding with moments of more measured travel to shake off any pursuer. It's not how I'd run my games, but it gives different flavours which at least interact on the same scale.

[jibbajibba]

I'd say, based on our earlier speculation, that one way to do it might be to suggest that, while Pattern and Logrus both enable the user to shadow walk and hellride, the effort required is inverted. Where a Pattern user can stroll casually through shadow with minimal effort but finds rapid travel draining, a Logrus user might be able to rip through shadow veils rapidly with considerable ease, but find more nuanced travel between close Shadows to be tiring.

In a chase, the Pattern user might need to strike a balance between moving fast enough to evade capture butslow enough that the Logrus user might miss him entirely (effectively 'overshooting' the Amberite).

A fleeing Chaosite might be able to hellride with ease, but doing so leaves an obvious trail which the Amberite could follow at his leisure (and I'd suggest that hellriding along in someone's wake is considerably less tiring than forging one's own way), so the Logrus user must temper his speed somewhat.

Ultimately, both travellers would need to find a moderate speed, or mix bursts of hellriding with moments of more measured travel to shake off any pursuer. It's not how I'd run my games, but it gives different flavours which at least interact on the same scale.

Yeah exactly how I am running it