Erick Wujcik's Greatest Error?
Its been a year since Erick Wujcik died. I was quite possibly his greatest fan. I made him a forum, for christs' sake! So it might seem weird that I of all people would choose to criticize him, on the anniversary of his passing.
But its not really Erick I'm criticizing, except perhaps for lack of good judgment or intuition. It seems to me that he was fooled, tricked if you will. Nevertheless, it might be the greatest error Erick Wujcik ever made, as far as his RPG legacy is concerned.
Amber is Erick's masterpiece. And by all rights, if any game deserves a revival, its this one. Even now, after years without any meaningful new developments, Amber remains an incredibly popular game, with a very loyal following. There is a natural market there for new material.
So it is particularly tragic that for this great game, it looks like there will not only be no more new material, but even the existing game is destined to remain out of print forever. And here was Erick Wujcik's greatest mistake: he put his trust for the future of this game to Edwin Voskamp and Eric Todd, who have, for the last two years, failed utterly to do fuck all with the game. Their website, "Diceless by design" remains with the very same placeholder it has had for the last two years, since one year before Erick's death until today. Voskamp and Todd have failed utterly and completely to capitalize on Amber's ongoing popularity, or even to try to maintain momentum with its online fandom, or to even communicate with its online fandom. They have failed.
And yes, this is in a way Erick's failure as well. I'm sure they promised him all kinds of things, and their credentials as fans of the game were good, and they appealed to his good nature and he trusted them. But he was wrong. They've fucked it up beyond all imagining, and have doomed us all.
Now, one year after Erick Wujcik's death, that failure counts not just as a disappointment to Amber fans everywhere, but as a sad stain on Erick Wujick's memory; as a reality that has damaged the likelihood of his memory being preserved into the future with a strong vibrant game that he created, a brilliant magnum opus of a game that should by all rights be an active and vibrant fixture of the gaming world. Instead it, and Erick Wujcik's memory along with it, will be doomed to recede fading into the ever-darkening shadows of obscurity. And yes, I place the heavy blame for that square on the shoulders of Mr. Voskamp and Mr. Todd's rank incompetence. Sadly, they appear determined to sit on their property, doing nothing with it on the one hand nor letting it be given to a company or respected designer that could move forward with the game on the other hand. Which is almost as bad as if the Swine had gotten their hands on the game. At least then we'd have a fight on our hands, but as it is, this is just a surrender.
RPGPundit
Bastards!
I'm also very disappointed that we've never heard any news from them in 2 years.
I try to tell myself that they may be really busy and/or blocked by the zelazny estate, but still, I can't help but think nothing will come from there :(
If it was just a question of their being blocked in PUBLISHING a new game by the zelazny estate, there's still a hell of a lot they could be doing right now, like, say communicating with the fanbase.
Instead, they've done absolutely nothing.
RPGPundit
Maybe they don't like us very much.
It does occur to me however that we really don't need them.
We don't need a new edition we don't need new rules the internet is rife with houserules variants and the like. Ambercons, though deminished in size still continue.
Rather than bitch about it we should take control of the situation. Between us we could easily produce a free to web Amber rule book. Put in the best variant rules, the best campaing examples etc etc. On this site alone we have enough experience to scome up with something.
In fact I was thinking about this last night and have already decided to take my in house Amber ccg game that I made up 5 or 6 years ago remove our Amberites replace them with Canon ones and release it for free from a website that will contain all the rules and templates for new card creations.
I am unsure about the legal situation but feel fairly certain that as long as no one makes any money out of it and there is no copywrited matierial it would be almost impossible to take action. More importanly I don't care :-)
So Pundit as Erick's greatest fan why not start to put something together. It's about time RPGs threw off the top down model and embraced the web 2.0. I am totally convinced we can put together something decent with no reference to Diceless by design.
I have a million and one ideas needless to say both in terms of layout and content. I might even be able to drum up some cash for art work , although i suspect that an appeal to the Amber Conmmunity and a re-opening of the Golden Circle Web Ring might prove sufficient to drum up enough cash for a few dozen decent drawings.
Sounds like a plan. The question is still about rights. House rules are a fine thing, but ADRPG and Amber Diceless, etc. are all trademarks. If the two want to make trouble, they could probably use this (although I don't know all that much about US law on trademarks and such).
WotC created the D20 open licence, explicitely allowing other companies to publish material for D&D 3.5 under this label. There is no such thing for Amber. Could anyone find out whether this is a problem?
What about the rights of Zelazny to names and concepts from the books?
It is one thing to make a free for all web project of it, but new Amber players will only be generated with printed material. Everything else dooms Amber in the long run. It is cool that we all know how great Roger's and Erick's work is, but to keep this knowledge alive, you'll have to publish.
As for the graphics. I know that quite a few Amber players are very good at drawing and painting. And I've made more than my share of magazine designs, so a rulebook layout shouldn't be a problem. The question is all about legality.
Quote from: Schattensturm;307843Sounds like a plan. The question is still about rights. House rules are a fine thing, but ADRPG and Amber Diceless, etc. are all trademarks. If the two want to make trouble, they could probably use this (although I don't know all that much about US law on trademarks and such).
WotC created the D20 open licence, explicitely allowing other companies to publish material for D&D 3.5 under this label. There is no such thing for Amber. Could anyone find out whether this is a problem?
What about the rights of Zelazny to names and concepts from the books?
It is one thing to make a free for all web project of it, but new Amber players will only be generated with printed material. Everything else dooms Amber in the long run. It is cool that we all know how great Roger's and Erick's work is, but to keep this knowledge alive, you'll have to publish.
As for the graphics. I know that quite a few Amber players are very good at drawing and painting. And I've made more than my share of magazine designs, so a rulebook layout shouldn't be a problem. The question is all about legality.
The publishing thing we can do nothing about. It is not possible to put a book in shops. Leagal rights blah blah. The point is, Is it actually necessary?
No one is going to walk into a store see an AMBER RPG and thing hey I like Amber what is an rpg? even if there was a published book it would be available in Game stores or on line or if you are very lucky in the little game bit at Borders. Since an Amber RPG isn't going to get new RPGers it's just going to tap into the exisitng RPG market and attract people that play other games do you need a published book?
Websites like this have a reasonable penetration, 2-5% or role players I would guess and maybe 10-20% of the more adventurous ie not just interested in D&D or WoD editionX. If you can create a compelling product that get's people's imagination going you might be able to create enough groundswell. If that is the case and there was a free downloadable pdf they could print for 10 dollars at the local copy shop or for the price of ink and paper at home you might be able to do something.
Now the legality of web based stuff that draws on copywrited material is such a grey area. If you shut down free fan type stuff on the web then 80% of the stuff that isn't porn would have to go and in any case by the time it got to that point of attracting attention the groundswell would already have to be sufficient to demonstrate to Diceless the Zelazny estate or whoever that there was a market for an exisitign product and then you just give it to them and let them publish, which they would probably do if there was profit to be make and the creators of said product were not looking for any control rights or ownership.
I plan on making my own source books... have been for a while.
Working on the Chaos one right now.
You saw the Houses...
Would be cool if I had more time to do it.
I think a character sheet is 1st priority.
Excel or publisher is all I have but it's good enough, you should see the stuff I could do with excel. The real problem I have with my sourcebook is that i just find pictures off the web which reeaally fit with my characters, shadows, or concepts.
I don't have everyone's names who made the pics, let alone permission to use them.
But it's gonna look cool as hell, and it'll just have to be local gaming, once I find that Baltimore group.
Matter O' Fact...
Here's an idea. This is just a WoD Char.Sheet i made and revised.
thanks to some awesome artist on DeviantArt for the picture I swiped that I see (use) as Lady Razell du Vertix, the Vampire Queen/Assassin working for the crown.
I'm thinking of reworking it all, I want bottom right 1/4 the sheet for picture, I'll put a trump boarder and a pic can just be imported.
I'll rework it before end of Summer.
(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii188/gabriel_ss4u/RazellCharSheet01.jpg)
What do you all think?
A friend of mine started a webcomic using the Amber setting. It'd only been up and running for a month or so before the Zelazny estate lawyers stomped on him and made him shut it down.
I am sure the only way they found out about it in the first place is because he posted something about it on a forum like this one.
Just a warning - they are out there and they are watching us!
Sorry, Gabriel, I like the character sketch, but not the sheet. It sure has the home made charme of the original ADRPG rules, but it doesn't look very professional.
Didn't mean to be harsh, but that's my opinion. Sorry.
Personally, I find it nice. Never been a fan of WoD sheets, but it isn't bad. Problem I see is, if you photocopy that, or just plain print it in black, the letters are going to look like a big black puddle. And as a side point, I'd leave the "History" and "Concept" sections out, which would give you more room to the sketch, like you want, and just take those kind of notes (and anything else needed) in the back of the sheet. And, hey, why so big an "Item Sketch" space? An alternative would be just to put a little "notes" or "contacts" or "Important Possessions" or whatever there... That said, I like the overall layout of the thing. Sorry if I'm being an arsehole, but hey... you asked.
Quote from: choccie_maus;308024A friend of mine started a webcomic using the Amber setting. It'd only been up and running for a month or so before the Zelazny estate lawyers stomped on him and made him shut it down.
I am sure the only way they found out about it in the first place is because he posted something about it on a forum like this one.
Just a warning - they are out there and they are watching us!
Interesting especially from a first time poster thanks for the heads up
No offense taken gents.
Thanks for the compliment Sunboy. I was going to post the sheet w/all the boxes showing the template on excel, but that isn't as pretty, so I whited them in.
I knew it wasn't a great ADRP sheet, as I said, I want to rework it.
Reference the WoD sheet and you'll see it looks closer to that, I wanted the flavor for my own gaming group in WoD.
But these suggestions for reworking are ones I had planned.
excel takes a while to 'tetris' format everything how you want it.
The Item box (bottom left) was especially useful in my "Immortal, the Gathering" game I created to go along in the WoD setting. Each Immortal has their own edged weapon so I left a box souly for displaying it.
Sorry it is so big, I didn't think it'd transfer that large, but you get the idea. As I said, it was a rather hasty re-working of a different game system sheet.
I need to find more time , I do want to create a Chaos Reference book/Binder that could be considered a great detailed open & play reference system. But everyone's Chaos is different, and that's the very beauty of it.
Perhaps if I just make it, set up a blank format from it on Publisher, then anyone could also fill-in-the-blanks in their own computer to form a personalized GM Chaos Book.
Everyone's Chaos has similar elements. Great Houses, Lesser Houses.
Orders of Knights, Church, Abyss, etc.
Even hangouts and cool ideas in Chaos like extended primary colors as one poster thought up.
Everyone deserves their own Chaos and I think we, (we being Brand & Us), can bring cHAoS to all.
I like where you are headed with the line of thought. Of course, it isn't the first time the notion of an end-user based wiki has happened for Amber. If you can remove the central control concept and work it more like a true wiki with editors rather than moderators, you will end up with a plethora of content, and as a whole the end result will likely be much better!
Quote from: Dip-N-Dots;308971I like where you are headed with the line of thought. Of course, it isn't the first time the notion of an end-user based wiki has happened for Amber. If you can remove the central control concept and work it more like a true wiki with editors rather than moderators, you will end up with a plethora of content, and as a whole the end result will likely be much better!
For surte you get more content but a wiki has a big draw back you can't print it off as a doc in pdf format and use it at the table.
I am totally into a wiki as a mehtod of collating rules but would like to see those rules formated into a workable doc for players. That means structure etc.
Now ideally you could create this in xml on the fly from the wiki content. So effectively the viewer selects the content they want with whatever rule variants they choose to include and drag n' drop that into their rules doc. the rules doc is made up of base verbiage, illustrations and chapter headings which you then populate with the rules variants. Then you parse the whole doc and get a pdf output that you can print (or even maybe get printed in book format on lulu.. and sent to you in the post)
Now that woudl be sweet at least until the Amber police closed you down...;)
They would close down a fan-based creation even though there is no money involved whatsoever? I mean, would they close down a fan-fiction site? Or even a forum?
The webcomic is a tricky thing, just because there are ways to get money from it (although I'm sure everyone on here would have loved to read it).
I mean, in the 90's, there were hundreds of websites about people's versions of the rules, even an Amber D20 and stuff like that...
Would offering a free PDF be means to legal recourse on their end? Where are the lawyers when you need 'em? Can someone answer this without speculation?
Yes. Intellectual property actually doesn't take into account if you are making money or not. If the property holder doesn't want you to use their "stuff", you can't. That's why DVD come with that "cannot be shown on prisons" and such. The fact being, if you are giving for free something they could potentially charge for, you are stealing. As stupid as it sounds.
We coudl do a game about Merba where hte various dukes of Merba have the ability to transverse layers of reality they call Veils the control of which is governed by walking the Maze. Could star Corwyn and Meric as antagonistic cousins...
I think that there are two distinct threads blending together.
1. What is offiically happening in the Amberverse, and how Erick dropped the ball.
2. What can we as fans do to make Amber resources availible.
As Pundit started this thread, and his emphasis was on #1, I'd suggest that someone start a new thread for #2 so that its content doesn't get lost here in the middle of thread #1. Does that make sense?
I agree with Pundit's fundamental premise for this thread, but it wasn't just the handing off of Amber where Erick failed. I talked with him several times about the kinds of Amber products I'd like to see produced by Phage Press (maps, trump decks, supplements) and he just didn't see the need to make them. Long before he passed, Erick held the keys to Amber and never made real use of them. Jason Durall wrote a Rebma book and Erick didn't like it, yet he never wrote one of his own. Erick was planning a book on his Bright campaign, and clearly this never appeared either. Erick had masterful ideas but had problems with the follow-through.
Not that the Estate has helped much. The only Amber books I see on the bookstore shelves is the Great Book of Amber, which isn't the most convenient to read as it contains the text of ten novels in a single volume. And doesn't even have the short stories! Readers nowadays don't know what Amber is, and the Estate couldn't even support Betancourt finishing his series of prequels. The Estate is also sitting on the IP, allowing time to pass without cultivating new fans.
And back to Pundit's point -- after Phage Press couldn't keep up any sort of publishing schedule and the GoO failure, Amber needed someone to grab the wheel and steer the ship. Even reprints of the existing rulebooks would at least keep Amber visible to gamers. What we didn't need is another group to get the rights and then do nothing.
Sadly true
As posted to the Amber Mailing List:
Quote from: Scott AckerIs there any hope that a second edition of Amber will happen? About a year ago I heard that the guys were straightening out their job situations. Is this still the hang up or had the estate pulled the plug on the project?
Thanks. Just curious (and after a few years, a little impatient).
Quote from: Edwin VoskampMea Culpa.
The short answer
No hope whatsoever: it will happen. Real Life got in the way. Real Life is now cooperating.
The long answer
Eric and I want to do this right, and that includes money to guarantee the agreement with the estate and for publishing. We want to keep control of what goes on with this, so we want to finance this ourselves. Unfortunately, I have moved across country, extensively changed my personal life, and changed jobs, just about as the financial crisis started. It resulted in me not having income for about 2 1/2 years. I started a new job three weeks ago and it put me in a place where we can actively move forward with this. Eric and I are sorting out our commitments and coming up with a schedule.
Edwin
When?
Today!
Hmm... what you think, then? Any chances, or another red herring?
And why the hell did he wrote "No hope whatsoever: it will happen"? I'm not sure I'd trust a guy with those writing skills...
I think that it's gonna be another few years before we see anything come out anyway... And even then, who knows how good it will be. I'd like to say that my hopes are high, but it's gonna take a while and unless they kick some very, insanely major ass with their book, there will not be an Amber community revival.
I run Amber games at every gaming or hobby con I attend and the attendance for the games are good, but not many people play the game very regularly. The community is shrinking, and let's face it, that's kind of the point of a new edition, a new take on Amber or a new anything, really (even a fucking reprint would be nice!)... GROWING THE AMBER COMMUNITY!!!
I never really understood why they didn't do at least a cheap-ass softcover reprint just to keep the ball rolling... that would have been nice.
Agreed.
The next question to ask them, over on that mailing list, should be why they've consistently failed to communicate at all with either the Amber fandom in general, or with this forum (the Official Amber DRPG forum) despite my repeated overtures to them?
RPGPundit
Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;318253...not many people play the game very regularly. The community is shrinking, and let's face it, that's kind of the point of a new edition, a new take on Amber or a new anything...
This is really what bothers me the most -- the fading of the entire franchise.
Roger has been gone for well over a decade and there just don't seem to be very many Zelazny books on bookshelves. As such, younger readers don't really even know who he is or what Amber is all about.
All DicelessByDesign complaints aside, keep in mind that the last significant non-Amberzine publication for
Amber Diceless was
Shadow Knight in 1993. That's
sixteen years since ADRP last saw a supplement. That's a dead game, and sadly Erick didn't find a way to keep it alive. Erick had a major property back in 1991 when the core book came out, becasue his game was the first and only one of its kind. Now there are dozens of diceless wannabe games out there.
By the time the
DOA ("Dead On Arrival", or "Dicelss Owners of Amber") folks actually get their act together, it's possible there won't be a market for the game anymore. Heck, many folks seem to believe that the ADRP ship has already sailed a long time ago.....
Quote from: RPGPundit;318550The next question to ask them, over on that mailing list, should be why they've consistently failed to communicate at all with either the Amber fandom in general, or with this forum (the Official Amber DRPG forum) despite my repeated overtures to them?
I think I read somewhere that they planned to open their own forum and as such didn't want to start discussion elsewhere. That might explain why they don't come here.
As to the larger question, why they have failed to communicate with the Amber community in general, I really don't get it. I keep hearing that these guys are huge Amber fans, so they must be aware of the places where other Amber fans hang out. I mean, two years is a really long time to expect fans to sit and wait without giving updates.
To be honest, the 'why' is, in my opinion, largely irrelevant.
Either they will publish a second edition, or they won't, ... only time will tell and anything else is simply speculation, and in my opinion, is not particularly constructive.
The more important matter that has been bought up here is what, if anything, can we do to revive or encourage growth in the Amber community. Unfortunately, I don't have a definitive answer to that, but running high quality and enjoyable Amber games has to be a good step in the right direction, even if it is a small step.
Just my 2c worth.
Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;318079As posted to the Amber Mailing List:
Hi there! Sorry to intrude on the conversation, but which mailing list is that?
They've apparently been planning (and failing to deliver) a lot of stuff over the past two years. That might be a clue to them that they really ought to rely on help from all the fans who'd be more than willing to help.
Also, making separate Amber forums is probably a dumb idea. This place had Erick's official sanction, and is the most active Amber forum still in operation, and as owner of this site I'd be willing to do all kinds of things to accomodate them; they'd have an instant access to a couple of thousand gamers through theRPGsite, which would at least give them a place to start.
RPGpundit
Imagine if you will, the phrase "I pulled a DbyD" as to refer to allowing the best of a campaign situation slip past you while you Plan and Plot and end up missing the storming of the castle walls.
"Oh, it looks like the other faction took throne while you wasted valuable time and ignored willing assets... you probably shouldn't show up for the coronation seeing as how your promises faded and you never delivered... DbyD!"
It can refer to any amount of various fax paus. (fau paus?)
anyhaw,
D by D, if you're out there listening, the administrator and alot of us others are asking for a post/info... morsel.
are ya there?
or do I start practicing my Carlos Mencia imitations?
Quote from: RPGPundit;318550The next question to ask them, over on that mailing list, should be why they've consistently failed to communicate at all with either the Amber fandom in general, or with this forum (the Official Amber DRPG forum) despite my repeated overtures to them?
RPGPundit
I'm not speaking for them, but the general tone of this forum is rather negative regarding Diceless by Design and their inability to get a new edition out the door. The tone of this thread, for example, might be a good reason why they aren't posting here.
Quote from: RPGPundit;318842Also, making separate Amber forums is probably a dumb idea. This place had Erick's official sanction, and is the most active Amber forum still in operation, and as owner of this site I'd be willing to do all kinds of things to accomodate them; they'd have an instant access to a couple of thousand gamers through theRPGsite, which would at least give them a place to start.
RPGpundit
The Amber E-Mail List (http://leutheuser.com/amber/) has been around for something like 17 years or more, and most Amber DRPG fans have been using that all this time. Erick never made that an official mailing list, but it doesn't stop folks from regarding it as such.
People generally don't like change, and I'm sure that if the Amber List were to stop for some reason, someone would start a new one rather than migrate over to a new or existing forum.
I know Eric and Edwin, the DbD guys, and they are die-hard
Amber fans. They're also people, and it's more than likely that they've been dealing with real-life stuff and haven't had the time to work on a new edition of
Amber, just like Erick managed to put Phage Press and
Amber out of his mind for the better part of a decade.
Quote from: RPGPundit;318842Also, making separate Amber forums is probably a dumb idea. This place had Erick's official sanction...
All I know is that, putting myself in their position, if I create a game I also want to be in control of my own forum rather than having someone else running the show. As a moderator you have certain controls that you don't get as a poster, and if you tick off the guy who runs "your" board it can turn on you in a heartbeat.
As far as Erick's "official sanction" goes for this or any other board, that doesn't really mean much anymore since Erick isn't around and he left others in charge of his game. I presume that the
Guardians of Order forum got the same "official sanction" when they were going to try to publish
ADRP as well. Those others don't have to follow his lead, and now I guess we wait to see which board is given an "official sanction" by
Diceless By Design.
The Amber Email list is fine and good, but there are certain things a forum can do that a mailing list just can't.
As for the attitude, trust me that if the DbyD guys had the common courtesy to respond to the countless messages I sent their way, and showed any indication to the general public at all that things were moving forward in any way, that attitude would change to one of trying to help them in every respect.
Just like Erick had, they would be given moderator status over the Amber forum.
As for "official sanction", as far as I know, this was the ONLY forum EVER given "Official" status by Erick Wujcik for the Amber game. GoO's forums were no doubt Guardians of Order's official forum, but they were not Erick Wujcik's Official forum.
Likewise, should Diceless by Design choose to go it alone, and not make use of all the foundation this forum has laid down for them just waiting to be taken advantage of, they could end up creating the "Edwin and Eric" official forums, but they would not be Erick Wujcik's Official Amber Forum.
Erick might have left DbyD in charge of his game, but he left ME in charge of the Amber RPG Forum. I leave it you to judge who's done a better job so far both in terms of keeping things going now that Erick is gone, and in terms of trying to reach out to the other guys to work together for Amber's future.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;318550The next question to ask them, over on that mailing list, should be why they've consistently failed to communicate at all with either the Amber fandom in general
They do communicate with the Amber fandom. Both Eric and Edwin attend
at least two Ambercons every year, as well as other gaming conventions. They both run a lot of games at the cons.
They've held at least two meetings/round-tables talking about some of their ideas and how they want to get input from Amber players.
Every time the question has come up on the Amber mailing list Edwin has replied promptly.
It's true they're not visible on this particular forum, but then this is the place the owner/administrator/moderator calls them "useless fucks".
Quote from: RPGPundit;317023Let's say someone was sick of those useless fucks over at Diceless by Design...
Quote from: fizzbinn;319058They do communicate with the Amber fandom. Both Eric and Edwin attend at least two Ambercons every year, as well as other gaming conventions. They both run a lot of games at the cons.
They've held at least two meetings/round-tables talking about some of their ideas and how they want to get input from Amber players.
Every time the question has come up on the Amber mailing list Edwin has replied promptly.
It's true they're not visible on this particular forum, but then this is the place the owner/administrator/moderator calls them "useless fucks".
Whatever, they said they'd post info on this forum, that was about 2 yrs. ago, so it makes them look like lying bastards... is
that going to keep them from doing what they said? I see no effort on their part as they stated they'd update us. I'm sure they'd receive different comments if they do what they say they will. Hell, If I had the money & resources, I'd take it from them and get it up & moving asap. But as I it is, I can only watch and wait... and that can be a long time from the 2 uneventful yrs. have shown thus far.
I think this is getting a bit unfair and the last think we want this forum to become is an anti Amber 2e forum.
Pundit can be a bit, what is the word , undiplomatic at times but its only because he really does care about this topic.
This forum, and the rpgsite as a whole has a reputation for uncompromising critism and comment. Typically punches are not pulled and the thin skinned are perhaps at risk.
We (aside from fizzbinn, and welcome to the forum by the way) are having a go at a couple of blokes who's circumstance we know nothing of. It's entirely possible that DbD have undergone no end of personal or professional events and as we all know sometime Real Life can interfere in what we want to do.
If as FizzBinn says the guys have been to several Ambercons and have been active on the mailing list then fine. There really is no reason why this forum should mean anything to a new game. Yes we'd all be willing to help in any way possible but doesn't mean we have some sort of right to be involved.
So lets be +ve and wait to see if the situation improves and maybe FizzBinn can pass our enthusiam and best wishes onto Diceless by Design.
Actually, pretty funny people are wanting to be talked to by some guys in a thread called "EW's greatest error", where the "greatest error" was apparently giving the game to said guys...
And jibba's right, I'm pretty sure everyone in here would get behind DbD to the best of their abilities if asked...
One more thing, @Gabriel: Actually, yeah, I wouldn't want to come to a forum where I'm called a useless fuck, either, or at least if I perceive that's the forum's general attitude.
So, now, here's Uncle SunBoy's advice: Let us all cut the crap on the DbD guys, and if things are starting to stir again, maybe we'll have some news here after all.
And at Pundit, in public: Dude, we all know Erick was here and "sanctioned" the forum as his and his game's Official fanforum. That doesn't mean he did not approve of or that he disregarded the other Amber fan communities in the 'net, but it certainly gives you, personally (and the lot of us here, I like to think, to some degree) at least some little torch to carry. So use it wisely, let bygones be bygones, and say here, publicly, that you are, as the rest of us, committed to make Amber grow and thrive again. Right now, that means Diceless by Design, so let us support the guys. We haven't got anything to lose, but we've got a lot to gain.
After all, it worked for you with DWRPG, right?
Apologizing for calling the guys "useless fucks" would be nice, too, but that's probably not gonna happen...
...sigh.
Ok, and of course, you have a valid point Sunboy.
I recant the DbaD revolution I was starting from the wings of nefarious plotting having to do with my evil twin brother's manipulations, in the end it would have caused too much pandemonium when...
oh wait... dang, thought I was in an imaginary game there for a sec.
OK give 'em space.. and time right?
...how much?
I welcome any updates from them... are there any?
What I posted from the Amber Mailing List is the latest update.
SunBoy, you're absolutely right... It's just not uncommon for fans to bitch and moan then switch to gleeful excitement at the right time. Let's be honest and face the fact that there will not be an Amber revival for a long time to come.
Additionally, I can't imagine any of us would refrain from buying Amber 2.0 or whatever Edwin and Erik end up putting out, in spite of our current complaints. It's just how the industry works... Delays= bitching from the fans.
Quote from: jibbajibba;319247I think this is getting a bit unfair and the last think we want this forum to become is an anti Amber 2e forum.
Agreed. I think that fundamentally we're all on the same side and should band together to champion the new edition. I think the problem we're having is simply that we don't know who to contact to offer ideas or support or whatever.
Quote from: SunBoy;319420we all know Erick was here and "sanctioned" the forum
Y'know Erick posted on my forum and "sanctioned" it as well, but I figure that once he's gone the torch doesn't burn any more.
Quote from: gabriel_ss4u;319219Whatever, they said they'd post info on this forum, that was about 2 yrs. ago, so it makes them look like lying bastards...
I think we should be careful here. Did the DbD guys ever
say that they would post here? I remember hearing from Erick that they were putting up their place-holder website, remember from somewhere that they wanted their own forum, and know that Pundit has invited them to join up here, but I'll be darned if I can remember either of the two guys actually posting here that they would be giving updates on this forum.
Quote from: finarvyn;319577Y'know Erick posted on my forum and "sanctioned" it as well, but I figure that once he's gone the torch doesn't burn any more.
Did you read "this was the ONLY forum he ever sanctioned" anywhere in my post? Because I'm pretty sure I was making the opposite point. I really think that the question of who did what in whose forum is secondary, the primary point I was trying to make was in favour of the game itself. That's where the "official" part comes in. It stands to reason that any forum "officially" sanctioned by Mr. Wujcik (like yours and this one, or the mailing list) will have a more prominent standing among the fan community than any others, therefore, if there is actually any good that can come from Internet fan support to a game like Amber, then it will come from these forums. That's what I meant by "torch". I am trying, to the best of my abilities and with full conscience of the negligibility of my opinion's weight, to be constructive.
Quote from: SunBoy;319653Did you read "this was the ONLY forum he ever sanctioned" anywhere in my post? Because I'm pretty sure I was making the opposite point.
No, of course not, and my apologies if my post came off as an attack. In re-reading I see that it was my poor word choice of "torch" that causes the problem -- I wasn't paying attention to the fact that you had just used a "carry the torch" phrase and should have chosen other words. It was not my intent to blast your post. :-(
My point was that there are at least four "officially sanctioned" boards that I know of (this one, mine, GoO's while it lasted, and another one Erick used to post on regularly but is gone now and whose name totally escapes my mind at the moment) and the mailing list which is slightly different but official, but this doesn't mean that the
Diceless By Design folks need to frequent any or all of them if they don't want to. When they establish their own forum, that one will become the only one that really matters because it will then be the center of the Amberverse.
Quote from: SunBoy;319653if there is actually any good that can come from Internet fan support to a game like Amber, then it will come from these forums. That's what I meant by "torch". I am trying, to the best of my abilities and with full conscience of the negligibility of my opinion's weight, to be constructive.
I agree, and I think we're really saying the same thing in essence. We need to keep the game alive by keeping
Amber Diceless discussion alive on as many forums as possible and by trying to keep a positive "spin" on things for as long as possible.
Brilliant.
I will say, AGAIN; that I'm absolutely committed to the success of Amber 2e, and would be willing to help DbyD in any way possible.
I've been saying that for two years now, and more, and never gotten a single response.
And as for sanction, there's a difference between "Its good that you guys did this forum, I approve", and "Erick Wujcik has declared this the Official Amber DRPG forum". He did this out of friendship to me and out of confidence that I'd be able to keep Amber RPG discussion alive, and yes, out of approval of my perspectives on Amber and RPGs.
RPGPundit
Quote from: fizzbinn;319058They do communicate with the Amber fandom. Both Eric and Edwin attend at least two Ambercons every year, as well as other gaming conventions. They both run a lot of games at the cons.
They've held at least two meetings/round-tables talking about some of their ideas and how they want to get input from Amber players.
Every time the question has come up on the Amber mailing list Edwin has replied promptly.
It's true they're not visible on this particular forum, but then this is the place the owner/administrator/moderator calls them "useless fucks".
They only got called that after TWO years of:
A) Not doing anything or producing anything at all visible as a result of their being in charge of the Amber RPG .
B) having over and over again ignored any of my invitations to discussion and offers of assistance.
They may be on a mailing list, and that's great. If its 1997. But its not, its 2009; and they have NO web presence whatsoever. No website. No forums. No writing on forums. No press releases. NOTHING.
If the point is to engage in "outreach" and not just chitchat with their ambercon buddies, its really being missed.
RPGPundit
Quote from: gabriel_ss4u;319219Whatever, they said they'd post info on this forum, that was about 2 yrs. ago, so it makes them look like lying bastards... is that going to keep them from doing what they said?
I should, for the sake of accuracy, clarify that the DbyD guys never said they'd post here; they never said ANYTHING. Not once.
This, in spite of the fact that Erick Wujcik had made plain to me that he had personally told them about this place and me, and that I'd repeatedly, at least a half-dozen times, tried to get in touch with them.
QuoteI see no effort on their part as they stated they'd update us.
Now, what they DID say they'd do, on their website, was to update the DbyD website and have a bunch of information and material. And that is something that can be legitimately stated they've failed to keep their word on.
RPGPundit
Hello. This is my first post on this forum and in fact my first Amber DRPG contact in about six years. I used to run the Sharper Than a Serpent's Tooth campaign online. I was inspired to look into the state of the game after playing an Amber game at GenCon last week.
I'm dismayed by the dismal state of the game, but also by the dismal state of the fandom. Not to say the fans, of course, just a comment on their lack of visibility. Do you know how hard it is to find anything on the game less than a decade old when searching online? One could easily think the game went the way of Metamorphosis Alpha (except that M.A. is back in print). So I'm glad to see this forum.
I recognize Erick's seminal importance in the creation of the game, but he really did little to guide or aid it after giving it birth (Shadow Knight aside). I don't know the Diceless by Design guys, but I accept at face value the assertion that they are huge Amber fans. Aren't we all? The problem is not necessarily their dedication or their creative talent (both of which might be enormous for all I know), but their business acumen and possibly experience. All businesses are difficult to run well, and guys who don't have incomes for a long time are not going to be able to publish a quality product.
I know at least four or five game designers who have been talking about their half-finished games for a boringly long time. That's not how real business gets done. If those products are ever brought to print, it will be too little, far too late.
I call on the owners of Diceless by Design to seek aid. Sure, lots of it is available on these forums and elsewhere in the form of creative ability, but that's not what I'm talking about. DbyD needs help from someone who is both an Amber fan and who has experience with publishers and running businesses. They need someone who will run that business with a ruthless dedication and get it done. Get help, fellas!
Long time I didn't post here. Long time I didn't play Amber either. It is good to see people still passionate about it.
I find it ironic that the guys who own the rights on ADRPG say they are committed to the community while saying that it will cost them money to do anything. If they can't manage to make a reprint of the first ed (that was the one that got us completely hoked to the game) then just released it for free to anyone to download. Please don't let it die. I had to pirate my first copy before i could buy a second-hand one (70$) on eBay. It costs a single statement that takes ten minutes to write in legalese stating "The Amber diceless RPG book is now in the public domain, and free for anyone to distribute freely. The Amber settings still is the property to XXX"
A long time ago I set up a wiki for people to make an encyclopedia of Amber. At the time I thought I would have spare time to fill it but, well, I changed job a week later... It is still at amberpedia.free.fr and fairly spared by the Chinese spamming bots. It doesn't have a lot of content. I wouldn't mind if people wanted to wipe it out to make a fresh project on it. I won't have much time to follow it, but this site will stay the same. I can be reached at yvanhoe@free.fr but you'll have to put a [FromWebsite] in your message body to get past my spam filters.
I'm not sure, but it might be that they could not release the book for free due to licensing issues; even so, they could also have monetary interest in not releasing the book for free; but then they should really get onto re-releasing the book for sale.
RPGPundit
This is things like this that makes one wonder why copyrights are heritable. Heirs are usually less dedicated to the works of an author than its fans.
Private property, the origin of all evil.
Quote from: Ivanhoe;323143This is things like this that makes one wonder why copyrights are heritable. Heirs are usually less dedicated to the works of an author than its fans.
Because authors are more dedicated to their heirs than to some unknown fans?
Quote from: jdurall;318903The Amber E-Mail List (http://leutheuser.com/amber/) has been around for something like 17 years or more...
I was afraid you meant that one. I can't join it, I have no idea why, but every e-mail I send gets bounced. And I try several times a year...
Anybody here who can help me with this?
I can't really blame DbyD for not adopting this forum. For one thing, putting someone else in charge of your forums is a terrible idea.
For another, well, when my brother came home from California on leave he had forgotten the name of this forum, but was able to refer to it as "that forum where the moderator calls everyone swine" and I instantly knew what he meant. No one can questions RPGPundit's dedication to the game, but this does not look like a good place to convince new people to be part of the ADRPG community or to discuss significant alterations to the rules.
By all accounts I'd heard from Erick, there was no plan to significantly alter the rules in a second edition.
I think that there's no problem using this forum to discuss house rules or variants. If you use an amber forum to talk about how the Amber game itself should be changed into Nobilis or something, then that's just douchebag-behaviour.
RPGpundit
Ive seen Amber and Shadow Knights on Ebay for around 20 quid tops.
what's a quid?
LOL
Sorry - Quid is a GBP Pound.
Ive bought spare copies in the past.
Quote from: RPGPundit;320463"Erick Wujcik has declared this the Official Amber DRPG forum". He did this out of friendship to me and out of confidence that I'd be able to keep Amber RPG discussion alive, and yes, out of approval of my perspectives on Amber and RPGs.
Erick Wujcik's greatest error?
Quote from: Trevelyan;333061Erick Wujcik's greatest error?
Considering this is one of the only places that still has a decent amount of activity, I'd say that in THIS case, he backed the right horse.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;333857Considering this is one of the only places that still has a decent amount of activity, I'd say that in THIS case, he backed the right horse.
RPGPundit
And Jibbajibba just started a very promising Throne War game through this board, proof if needed that the place isn't just a gathering of bitter non gamers. I find discussions here very stimulating and open minded.
We won't let Eric Wujcik's opus die.
Quote from: RPGPundit;333857Considering this is one of the only places that still has a decent amount of activity, I'd say that in THIS case, he backed the right horse.
RPGPundit
Ah, I'm just ribbin' ya, big fella. I post here myself, afterall!
Although a little more tact towards other members of the community who don't post here wouldn't go amiss...
Quote from: Trevelyan;333915Ah, I'm just ribbin' ya, big fella. I post here myself, afterall!
Although a little more tact towards other members of the community who don't post here wouldn't go amiss...
Heheheh you suggested the Pundit should show tact ...hahahaha
Quote from: jibbajibba;334053Heheheh you suggested the Pundit should show tact ...hahahaha
Sometimes a man just has to piss into the wind!
Quote from: Trevelyan;334058Sometimes a man just has to piss into the wind!
Just stretch your arms and say "I'm king of the woooorld"
My current frustration is the product of a couple of years of intended "tact", being inviting, being communicative, and getting ZERO response.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;334802My current frustration is the product of a couple of years of intended "tact", being inviting, being communicative, and getting ZERO response.
That's no excuse for falling off the wagon! ;)
unless very possibly, they are watching this site and gonna snatch up a bunch of ideas for the system... (hopefully the good ones)
Whatever the case, communication is key here and.... I don't see any communication.
I think we all are wishing Diceless By Design the best and hope to see something from them. It's unfortunate that we are seeing nothing at all. This also makes it more difficult for me, at least, to feel any sense of empathy/sympathy or encouragement for the company.
me personally?
I don't care at this point, been too long. If they go bankrupt maybe that would lend itself well to the situation if someone better suited or more motivated would pick it up and run with it.
Similar feeling there. It's been too long, I guess I just think that they'll do nothing. They were probably really motivated at the start, but life has a way of getting in the way and postponing things forever.
If they weren't going to jump onto this thing hardcore, they should never have offered to take it from Erick. As it is, we have one of the worst scenarios imaginable for the game; they're not going to do anything, nor are they going to pass it on to anyone. The game will be permanently stuck in non-production.
RPGPundit
Well I consider the proliferation of the PDF of Amber DRPG to be a matter of culture propagation. Who needs a publisher ? You won't steal anything anymore from either Zelazny or Erick by sharing their works. All they have to do is to declare the Amber DRPG book to be CC-sa-nd-nc and the thing WILL be reedited and at least will be legal to share. I personally would prefer a plain CC-sa (authorizing derivatives, even commercial ones, this would allow the Rebma book to be edited) but I would be happy with either solution.
How about sharing the file and seeing if they'll dare send a cease and desist letter ? At least it would be communication...
IMO, they wouldn't. The Zelazny estate would.
I sincerely doubt that they would want to make this forum their primary forum, but as an active forum that was sanctioned by Eric, it would have been reasonable to at least show up and introduce themselves, talk a little about their plans, etc.
They didn't do that or anything else that I am aware of ( except for the Ambercon attendance that I read in this thread, apparently). Maybe there is work we aren't seeing ( I hope so), but so far, I have to agree that while pundit may have put things abrasively, he seems to be right. DBD has dropped the ball and doesn't much seem to want to pick it up.
Quote from: Ivanhoe;342120How about sharing the file and seeing if they'll dare send a cease and desist letter ? At least it would be communication...
Let's not suggest that here, please.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;325267If you use an amber forum to talk about how the Amber game itself should be changed into Nobilis or something, then that's just douchebag-behaviour.
Damn. Remind me not to get on your bad side.
Consider yourself reminded.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;360469Consider yourself reminded.
RPGPundit
Ha-ha! Well, I guess I have a better chance than some, since I am a fellow loather of the pretentious twats at The Forge. What? Someone demands proof? What could be more dogmatic and pretentious than locking the RPG Theory topic. Seriously? There are no new theories to be discussed? Ever? Even my good friend who is quite an amazing indie game designer and generally worships the ground that Edwards and Holmes walk on (even after Holmes totally dissed him in the forward to his own book) found that one hard to swallow.
Hmm, well, it sounds like you're not a kool-aid drinker, anyways.
RPGPundit