[Amber] Attribute Relativism

[RPGPundit]

How do you get that number?

It was their soldiers that got them most of the way of the stairs. In Nine Princes of Amber, Corwin says : "I'd say we were three-quarters of the way there when Bleys' turn finally came." Bleys did most of that last quarter distance, but Corwin made it a little ways too. Bleys certainly took on quite a few men, the book makes that point pretty clear, but I don't know how you can say for sure that it was "thousands."

Three quarters up the stairs up a mountain!

A quarter up a mountain is still a long way to be fighting one soldier after another.

[jibbajibba]

The Amberites main power, in addition to Pattern, is endurance and immortality. In addition to this they are stronger than humans but in a captain America way not a Hulk way.

Everything else they can do is down to these things combined with living in a world that is full of magic. Because they live a long time they become masters of weapons and fighting, this is not innate its because they have vast experience. Because they live in a world full of magic and they are immortal they have time to master magic. There is no indication that a normal person couldn't master magic given time and opportunity.

Corwin fights his way up Kolvir because he has superhuman endurance and years of training.

My opinion on Regeneration and healing is that it is an innate native expression of Shapeshifting. Amberites have forgotton that their bodies are effectively shadow matter that can be shifted and altered but despite forgetting this heritage it's still embedded in their "DNA" so to speak so it happens involuntarily over time.

There is no indication that Amberites are smarter than humans. They often consult specialists and can be beaten at chess by old lighthouse keepers. They are not even uniformly great at Machiavellian plotting. Benedict, in particular, is an absolute Klutz when it comes to being outsmarted, tricked, fooled or conned.

[Taewakan]

Amber Stats & Powers - a mix of points and ranking

Human vs. Chaos vs. Amber is pretty well spelled out.
Normal humans are -35 to -15 i.e. Toddlers to Normal Mercs. Chaos Children.
Normal Creatures of Chaos are -14 to -5 i.e. Elite Special forces and Olympic hopefuls to Jasons and Michael Meyers types. Amber Children.
Normal Barely Adult Amberites are -4 to +4 i.e. Chuck Norris, Bobby Fisher and Stephen Hawking types. Named, but insignificant Lords of Chaos.
See books for specific stats and modify according to personal taste.

You can look up human maximums online with just a few keystrokes. I tend to use these as base -10 Chaos level abilities, especially when it comes to physical abilities like strength, endurance and the physical aspects of warfare (dexterity & agility). For other non-physical stats I use unique humans to define base Amber level Warfare. Machiavelli, Mushashi, and Sun Tzu tend to define my base Amber level for tactics and strategy (and yeah, I know Sun Tzu was probably a buncha guys.).

After defining these base levels I use a point-based scale for comparison purposes and place the ranking characters on that scale.
Nobody gets to be stronger than Gerard, Quicker or more Strategic than Benedict, have a stronger will, ego or psyche than Fiona or more stamina or endurance or unaided healing power than Corwin i.e. Rank 1 in their respective Stats though I do modify Corwin up to 200 in Endurance for simplicity's sake.

Then we throw in modifiers. as an example, I like Shape Shifting, so that is a big physical modifier in my multiverse.

Then there are the artifact creatures and items that grant things like true regeneration and various levels stats and sub-categories of those stats. Magic swords and the like.
I use a 16 point scale to place the items on the aforementioned ranking chart with 4 usually equalling Amber 0 and 16 equalling 200. You can do the math.

You can find incredible physical feats even among (supposedly) normal humans, like being able to pull a train (150,000 tons.)
I tend to use these when we get into the Gerard level of feats of strength.

I also make a Rank Chart for the elders and fit my PCs into the chart, ranking them against the rest of the multiverse instead of each other. It might not be completely cannon, but it works for me as a DM.

I like the Rank-based damage system modified by STUFF vs. the specific amounts of damage used in other systems. Both my players and I LIKE to role-play combat.

I also like the superhero systems for shadow specific abilities.
I mean, who wouldn't go to Earth Prime and make the sun Orange instead of Yellow just to mess with Ka-El? (I suppose DC has addressed this, but it used-to-was that Superman's abilities were the result of living under a Yellow star.)
Many guardians of specific shadows operate on this principle. They are much more powerful in their home shadow than they are anywhen else in the multiverse.

[warp9]

Three quarters up the stairs up a mountain!

A quarter up a mountain is still a long way to be fighting one soldier after another.

That is a good point, mountains are pretty big. However, I never thought that Amber was actually at the top of the mountain, and I pictured the set up with the stairs somewhat more like this artists rendition of Amber and Kolvir:

http://www.artwanted.com/imageview.cfm?id=125824

But, even putting that aside. I think that a careful reading of the part where they are fighting their way up the stairs indicates that the number of soldiers they had to fight was smaller than you suggest. . . .

In Nine Princes in Amber, Zelazny says:

We made it to the halfway point, fighting for every step. Once we reached the top, there would be the broad stair of which the one in Rebma had been but an image. It would lead up the the Great Arch, which was the eastern entranceway to Amber.

Perhaps fifty of our vanguard remained.

So, it looks like 50 guys took them from the the halfway point up to the 75% mark (at which point Bleys started fighting). By your logic, going the 25% of the way up the stairs (from 75% to 100%) would have involved killing "thousands" of soldiers. So it would seem that going the same 25% distance (from 50% to 75%) would also have involved killing thousands of soldiers.

If those 50 guys in the vanguard killed, say, 2,000 soldiers, that would mean that the members of the vanguard killed an average of 40 guys each. It does say that the vanguard warriors did pretty well, and even gives some descriptions of how some of them took out a number of guys before they fell. But there is nothing to suggest that it was anything like taking out 40 guys for each one they lost.  

Onward and upward, our third man fighting with a blade in either hand. It was good that he fought in a holy war, for there was real zeal behind each blow. He took three before he died.

The next man wasn't as zealous, or as good with his blades. He fell immediately, and then there were two.

If we assume that those fifty guys went from the halfway mark to three quarters by killing two of Eric's soldiers for each one they lost, that means they had to fight 100 guys to go from 50% of the way to 75% of the way. If we assume the same number of soldiers going from the 75% mark to 100%, then Bleys took on about 100 soldiers. Which is more how I visualized the numbers.

[Taewakan]

Three quarters up the stairs up a mountain!

A quarter up a mountain is still a long way to be fighting one soldier after another.

I've always pictured Castle Amber on the top of a lesser summit below Kolvir, but above the town and port.

The approach from the sea is covered by the armada, but from land, not the side facing the city, but rather, facing Forest Arden, is a long switchback that is wider at the bottom. Say wide enough for a wagon and a pair of clydesdales...

I do picture the approach as being long and narrowing near the top. About half way up there is a station where the wagon can be unloaded and taken into the dungeon level of Castle Amber. This entrance is pretty much impervious to attack due to the nature of the access - a long murder hole is the least of the obstacles. It also provides a flanking advantage for the castle defenses if an enemy does try to use this stair as an attack point.

The way Corwin describes the assault makes Bleys seem like, well, a creature of legend. I have no problem with Bleys being a legendary warrior, but its been done now and modifications have been made to that access path.

As for how many troops they fought and killed during the ascent I think the hundreds vs. thousands is more realistic, but less archetypal. Remember, House Amber is the reality behind Plato's shadows on the wall. Even the biblical Samson fought off an entire army with just the jawbone of an ass. (Hmmm... Were they trying to say something sarcastic about the effectiveness of the opposing army?)

I've always pictured the normal troops of Amber as being equal to Chaos to base Amber Level in their various attributes and abilities i.e. The best normal humans have to offer. Fighting on a narrow stair presents even Ranked Amberites with limited responses to attacks coming down the stair. It is also the worst of tactical situations. Big rocks pushed over the edge from above could have a substantial effect on the fighting below. I suspect that the troops were forbidden from taking more effective tactical steps because Eric knew that his brothers were on the stair and he wanted them alive. Simple probability would have sufficed to defeat Bleys and Corwin - provided that Eric had enough men at his disposal.

Bleys' cry at the end, calling Corwin a fool, shows that Bleys thought Corwin was violating the code of brotherhood i.e. Trusting his brother in the one thing that he must - to take care of himself. Tossing Bleys his trump deck doomed Corwin to torture and imprisonment. If we believe the various write-ups Bleys was a master of Advanced Trump. Bleys didn't need a trump card, let alone a full deck, to teleport to safety. Oops. Hell, he probably planned on jumping to his, supposed-death before they reached the top. I think that the red-headed cabal was playing corwin from the start. The long con. Maybe as a test run for another scheme?
I'm just sayin'.