Constructs...

[scottishstorm]

I'm curious who here has played with constructs to any extent.  In the past games I've both played and run, the attitude towards constructs was  basically two-fold.
   1) "Um, please no.  Oh, god, no."
   2) If you MUST, "sell" me on the idea (translation: the only constructs that mad it through were ones that gave little-or-no benefit and were just a fearful monster of a disadvantage)

What are other people's experiences with constructs, as per Shadow Knight?

[Corambis]

The people I've played with have generally been of the opinion that they are a cool idea, but it's very easy to make an ungodly powerful one for very little points.  I made one just for the hell of it one time (I was insanely bored in the game at the time, for various reason), but it was (mostly) somewhat of a joke.  It was a construct that basically functioned as an inter-shadow bank and mail delivery system, among other things.  I called it Postwheel.

[scottishstorm]

The people I've played with have generally been of the opinion that they are a cool idea, but it's very easy to make an ungodly powerful one for very little points.  I made one just for the hell of it one time (I was insanely bored in the game at the time, for various reason), but it was (mostly) somewhat of a joke.  It was a construct that basically functioned as an inter-shadow bank and mail delivery system, among other things.  I called it Postwheel.

Postwheel. . .
     . . . punny!


Nice

[scottishstorm]

I like the idea of constructs as a plot device.  Ideally, a player will design the construct with the idea it is a) temporary, and b) it is just as much a liability to their character (or more) than it could be an asset, and c) it's not going to break the game.

Oh, and d) the player should also include vulnerabilities in its design or make suggestions on how the construct can be destroyed.

Yesterday, I designed such a construct for a game I soon hope to join.  I have yet to submit it to the GM, but I hope they like it.

[Xenon]

i have had the idea to allow constructs as Player Characters. their points would need to go mostly into powers, which can be quite expensive. whats left can be the shadows and manifestations. allies could represent its creators.

aside from that, most the ideas ive had for constructs lately involve mobile conjuring factories. i like to think big, so a flying mountain that draws power from dyson spheres in multiple shadows sounds about right to me. it seems to me that cross-shadow logistics are the best reason to use a construct.

it could go wrong easily enough, sure. but its a kind of power, the ability to quickly build or grow an army, and send them into battle. and power is often the entire pointof amber, where the only limit is not your points total but your imagination and how you dare to use it.

[scottishstorm]

i have had the idea to allow constructs as Player Characters. their points would need to go mostly into powers, which can be quite expensive. whats left can be the shadows and manifestations. allies could represent its creators.

aside from that, most the ideas ive had for constructs lately involve mobile conjuring factories. i like to think big, so a flying mountain that draws power from dyson spheres in multiple shadows sounds about right to me. it seems to me that cross-shadow logistics are the best reason to use a construct.

it could go wrong easily enough, sure. but its a kind of power, the ability to quickly build or grow an army, and send them into battle. and power is often the entire pointof amber, where the only limit is not your points total but your imagination and how you dare to use it.

Hmm.  Certainly within the scope and spirit of the game, but  what you're suggesting seems more like the item/creature creation rules and perhaps an extended or advanced version of conjuration rather than a construct (though potentially the differences between these can be a moot point).  In any event, what you illustrated above seems utterly reasonable compared to, say, the potential of... *shudder* Ghostwheel (casually kidnapping elders within Castle Amber... feh!)

But, it raises a good point.  "Constructs" can vary greatly in scope and "game-breaking" ability.  Many of us will probably agree that if Merlin was a player in a DRPG game, he'd be hated as a twink or munchkin.

[RPGPundit]

I had allowed constructs in various older campaigns I ran. In this one, its technically allowed, but I never mentioned anything about it to my players, and the implication is that they'd have to figure out how to create one and spend time, effort, and points doing so.
They've seen plenty of constructs (the Spikards, the Keep of the 4 Worlds, Ghostwheel), but none of them have ever so much as considered making one of their own. Instead, they've pretty well focused on powers and yes, on making use of artifacts that already exist.

RPGPundit

[scottishstorm]

As a side comment that factors in constructs, items and other Funky Stuff (tm), I think it's generally a good policy to consider a character's fundamental power level according to their total points, rather than the toys they use...

(I can hear the screaming already)

Yes, there are powers -specifically Pattern- that are designed to be word "more then their weight" in points.  If asked if I considered a 200 point character with no powers (only stats) equal to another 200 point character balanced between powers and stats, I'd probably agree that the latter was the more powerful character.  This isn't really what I mean.

To clarify, the DRPG makes an effort to delivery a sort of equality between characters if their point totals are similar.  I don't think it's at all in the spirit of the genre/theme or DRPG to 'twink out' a construct or an object with the items creation rules to give your character any absolute advantages over another.  I probably don't need to get into examples of this.  We've all seen them.

In specific reference to constructs, consider how many character points are invested in them and what this same amount of points might otherwise mean if spent elsewhere.  If, for example, someone spends three character points and gains the equivalent power of 30 points through a construct, then one way to look at it is 27 points of "bad stuff" specifically related to the construct.  (note: there are other counter-measures here and considerations.  In the case of a single player and a construct, said construct would be based upon the character's own purchased powers.  However, the construct is still typically "worth" far more than the character points invested in it and can be, thus, treated as inheriting a certain amount of "bad stuff" to help equal things out).

Wow, that's a lot of babble.  I'm not positive it all makes sense.  In a nutshell, what I'm trying to say (or propose) is that if that an item or construct is absurdly lopsided advantage, then I think the GM is right to consider a heaping help of bad karma and luck associated with it.

PS:  In terms of specific powers being lopsided in value, I'm all for this.  It fits well into theme and genre, IMO.  Though, I'm not always in agreement of the actual point cost of these powers.  (Is Pattern worth 50 points to a 200 point character?  Almost certainly.  Is it worth 50% of the points for a 100 point character?  Maybe not)

[jibbajibba]

As a side comment that factors in constructs, items and other Funky Stuff (tm), I think it's generally a good policy to consider a character's fundamental power level according to their total points, rather than the toys they use...

(I can hear the screaming already)

Yes, there are powers -specifically Pattern- that are designed to be word "more then their weight" in points.  If asked if I considered a 200 point character with no powers (only stats) equal to another 200 point character balanced between powers and stats, I'd probably agree that the latter was the more powerful character.  This isn't really what I mean.

To clarify, the DRPG makes an effort to delivery a sort of equality between characters if their point totals are similar.  I don't think it's at all in the spirit of the genre/theme or DRPG to 'twink out' a construct or an object with the items creation rules to give your character any absolute advantages over another.  I probably don't need to get into examples of this.  We've all seen them.

In specific reference to constructs, consider how many character points are invested in them and what this same amount of points might otherwise mean if spent elsewhere.  If, for example, someone spends three character points and gains the equivalent power of 30 points through a construct, then one way to look at it is 27 points of "bad stuff" specifically related to the construct.  (note: there are other counter-measures here and considerations.  In the case of a single player and a construct, said construct would be based upon the character's own purchased powers.  However, the construct is still typically "worth" far more than the character points invested in it and can be, thus, treated as inheriting a certain amount of "bad stuff" to help equal things out).

Wow, that's a lot of babble.  I'm not positive it all makes sense.  In a nutshell, what I'm trying to say (or propose) is that if that an item or construct is absurdly lopsided advantage, then I think the GM is right to consider a heaping help of bad karma and luck associated with it.

PS:  In terms of specific powers being lopsided in value, I'm all for this.  It fits well into theme and genre, IMO.  Though, I'm not always in agreement of the actual point cost of these powers.  (Is Pattern worth 50 points to a 200 point character?  Almost certainly.  Is it worth 50% of the points for a 100 point character?  Maybe not)

Yeah I agree with most of that. I tend to sum it up by saying 'you get what you pay for'.

As for powers Setting is key. If you are playing a game set in Amber say a Throne War then Pattern is practically useless. If you are playing a game where something key is in shadow then without Pattern you are basically screwed.

One of the reasons I use partial powers, aside from the fact that it allows gradual character development rather than quantum leaps and more closely mirrors the books, is so that no one ends up shadow lame. 50% of 100 points .. hmmm, 20% of 100 points and you can walk in shadow but haven't figured out how to manipulate probability or use the pattern to defeat mental attacks ... sure.

[scottishstorm]

As for powers Setting is key. If you are playing a game set in Amber say a Throne War then Pattern is practically useless. If you are playing a game where something key is in shadow then without Pattern you are basically screwed.

Ok, I'll bite

At the risk of sounding nit picky, I'll shout out on Pattern being "practically useless" in a Throne War scenario!  

• One of the first, and most obvious, considerations is: if the characters doesn't have Pattern of some level, he is ineligible for the throne.  Naturally, there's still play potential as a kingmaker or agent.  But, 'The Prize' is out of their grasp, really.


• Gathering armies.  Nuff said.


• Quick exit from Amber or infiltration to -anywhere- within the castle  is just a walk to the center of the Pattern... (caveat: 'walking the Pattern' is often downplayed in games.  Some GMs, however, stress that it's life-threatening even at peak physical condition, so this option may vary from game to game)


• When all else fails, leave Amber.  Shadowfinding 'of desire' can be invaluable to many of those pesky plot questions!


• Jewel of Judgment.  Nuff said.

[Gothic_Pepsi]

Pattern, IMO is one of the best powers, mainly because you can shadow walk etc but the whole bring the pattern to the mind is great if you get into a spot of trouble where some superior being is trying to get into your mind. however ive never been a big fan of constructs, the most i do is have a pet artifact and a danger sense item. i dont like having to rely on somthing else for starters, and if they are insanley powerful there is a chance of attracting assassins from people who want this power...

[jibbajibba]

Ok, I'll bite

At the risk of sounding nit picky, I'll shout out on Pattern being "practically useless" in a Throne War scenario!  

• One of the first, and most obvious, considerations is: if the characters doesn't have Pattern of some level, he is ineligible for the throne.  Naturally, there's still play potential as a kingmaker or agent.  But, 'The Prize' is out of their grasp, really.


• Gathering armies.  Nuff said.


• Quick exit from Amber or infiltration to -anywhere- within the castle  is just a walk to the center of the Pattern... (caveat: 'walking the Pattern' is often downplayed in games.  Some GMs, however, stress that it's life-threatening even at peak physical condition, so this option may vary from game to game)


• When all else fails, leave Amber.  Shadowfinding 'of desire' can be invaluable to many of those pesky plot questions!


• Jewel of Judgment.  Nuff said.

I will bite back

i) Rubbish - if I kill everyone that argues with me then I get to decide the rules of sucession. To the victor the spoils
ii) If you leave Amber in a throne war to recruit an army in shadow you have already lost. There is no time and taking control on Amber's military is far faster and look they are already in Amber
iii) If I don't have the pattern I can still walk the pattern but a trump is about 100 times faster uses far less energy
iv) In a throne war if you leave to a shadow of desire you have lost
v) Possibly an interesting point. There is an arguement that attuning oneself to the jewel has noting to do with having Pattern. Dworkin atunes himself to the jewel and then uses it to draw the pattern. This implies the Jewel and its powers are hierarchically above the Pattern. The initiate of the jewel can draw patterns so being attuned to any particular pattern is kind of moot.

Pattern is akin to Flying in a super hero game. If everyone but you can fly then you look like a jerk and you are always behind the action (its why Batman has toys and Spiderman bends the laws of physics and geometry).

If a new Amber game were under my Aegis then walking the pattern would be free and partial powers would mean you got a very basic level of skill.
In the books no one of the blood (and that includes Jurt !) dies walking the pattern if they stick to the path. If no one ever fails and a good few of those had zero time to prepare (Coral) then how hard can it be? Its like those Masonic ceremonies where they look like they are going to kill you unless you can name all of Hiram's cousins but in fact they are just going to whisper the answers to you if you forget them.

[scottishstorm]

Hahahahaahahahaha!

Ok, good points: all of them!  I suppose I should have began with the stating the idea that a Throne War's pace can vary from game to game.  It can span years, with diplomacy, building alliances and power bases, and back-stabbing of every shape & form.

Or, it could be over in a few days or even hours.

I do think, however, that there's a certain thematic relevance to the actual duration of a throne war.  Characters who have existed for centuries or millennia don't simply come into a free-for-all mess of blood blades and lightning. (Or, maybe they do...  I just think it'd be disappointing if they did)

[jibbajibba]

Hahahahaahahahaha!

Ok, good points: all of them!  I suppose I should have began with the stating the idea that a Throne War's pace can vary from game to game.  It can span years, with diplomacy, building alliances and power bases, and back-stabbing of every shape & form.

Or, it could be over in a few days or even hours.

I do think, however, that there's a certain thematic relevance to the actual duration of a throne war.  Characters who have existed for centuries or millennia don't simply come into a free-for-all mess of blood blades and lightning. (Or, maybe they do...  I just think it'd be disappointing if they did)

And I would agree with that I would probably never run a 'Throne War' in the tradditional sense but in another sense all my games are Throne Wars.
I would still argue that a game based in Amber kind of negates basic Pattern.

Say the game is based on investigating a murder in Amber. The players must identify the killer untangling a complex web of intrigue and double dealling. A couple of assasination attempts what have you. Just about all powers are useful but Pattern comes down the bottom.
Now take a game where the players have to locate a construct in Shadow that is surely but steadily transforming the Elder Amberites into Zombies (i know , I know ). Pattern is critical for this game shadow lame fellows will be at a huge disadvantage.

[Stormwind]

Now take a game where the players have to locate a construct in Shadow that is surely but steadily transforming the Elder Amberites into Zombies (i know , I know ). Pattern is critical for this game shadow lame fellows will be at a huge disadvantage.

I don't know if I'd quite say that pattern would be critical in such a game, but definitely some sort of shadow walking power would be (logrus or advanced shapeshifting come to mind).

In the end though, I think the players imagination is the determining factor in how useful any power or ability is.