Chaos-Based Campaign?

[RPGPundit]

Are there any major rules changes that you need to do in order to run a game based on the Courts of Chaos?

What sort of new ideas have you incorporated into a Courts-centric game?

RPGPundit

[Otha]

Well, the Courts are supposed to be a much more widely populated "family" so I wonder if an auction is the best way to go.

[finarvyn]

I'm not sure if this is the proper place to post this, but I always found the whole Amber rank / Chaos rank strange from an attribute standpoint.

Is there anything in the Zelazny books to suggest that CoC characters would be significantly worse than Amber characters? I mean, the ADRP game gives us "Chaos" rank and "Amber" rank that the assumption is that Amber is a lot better than Chaos but should it be?

Clearly the ADRP is designed with an "Amber is better" slant since the tales are told by sons of Amber, but what if they had been told by one of Chaos? Corwin has high opinions of his siblings abilty to do things, but he also has a big bias and not much knowledge of the Courts. I'm not sure that Merlin was really puny because of that weak Chaos blood in his veins. Perhaps those of the Courts think of Amberites as handicapped since they cannot Shape Shift on demand. (At least, they don't need to in order to walk the Pattern in the same way that it's needed for the Logrus.)

So ... I would consider the following:
1. Is Pattern really better than Logrus? In a Chaos-centered campaign it might not be. When the two come in contact, what happens?
2. What about Chaos ranked attributes compared to Amber rank? Is there a difference, and if so why is it there? What about ranks of Chaos along with an auction just like we have in Amber-based games?

[RPGPundit]

I think that chaos+shapeshift or chaos+logrus will be at least equal to Amber+nothin.

The pattern is still pretty powerful against Logrus, but logrus is much more active, can be used offensively, etc.

As for the auction, yes, I'd be more willing to not use an auction for a chaos-themed campaign; however, at the same time the Merlin series shows the whole chaos scene as very Montague & Capulet, with rival houses, alliances and cabals, so you can keep the auction. Alternately, you can always have all the players be from the same house, which is really the same family situation as all being from Amber, which was once a house of Chaos too, after all.

RPGPundit

[Otha]

I think that chaos+shapeshift or chaos+logrus will be at least equal to Amber+nothin.

Your math doesn't add up, Pundit.

Given a 100 point build (that is, not going deep into Stuff-debt) shapeshift+logrus costs more than pattern, so a Chaosite character who's not shadow-lame is going to have fewer points to spend on attributes than an Amberite.

That's where Fin is coming from here, I'm almost certain.

[RPGPundit]

No, a chaos character or an amber character are equally powerful, its just that one is more attribute-based and the other is more power-based (as a general trend).

My argument was that this should mean that it should balance things out somewhat.  Obviously, shapeshifting is meant to be useful enough that a typical amberite peasant with Amber attributes in everything is going to be about evenly matched (about) with a typical Chaos demon with chaos rank in everything but Shapeshifting (assuming, of course, that they meet on a neutral playing field where the demon's shapeshifting is neither particularly advantaged nor somehow prevented from coming into full play).

RPGPundit

[Otha]

I disagree.

The Chaosite's powers are attribute-based.  His shapeshifting needs endurance; according to the book you can't do much without bidding there.  Once you've bought shapeshift, logrus, and some endurance, you have precious little for the attributes that would be used for winning contests.

Then again, I don't believe Logrus is by its very nature essential to a chaos-based character.  From what little we know of the canon, it seems like very few have it.  If I were playing in a chaos-based game I'd think twice before taking it.

[Arref]

Then again, I don't believe Logrus is by its very nature essential to a chaos-based character.  From what little we know of the canon, it seems like very few have it.  If I were playing in a chaos-based game I'd think twice before taking it.

I quite agree. I think this point is overlooked far too often.

[finarvyn]

Then again, I don't believe Logrus is by its very nature essential to a chaos-based character.  From what little we know of the canon, it seems like very few have it.  If I were playing in a chaos-based game I'd think twice before taking it.

Okay, so both Otha and Arref are making (or agreeing to) a point which sounds very interesting to me, but a point which I don't quite follow.

I have always just assumed that Chaos-based characters would build around Shape Shifting and Logrus, and that Logrus was pretty much the same thing to a Chaosite as Pattern is to an Amberite. So...
1. What makes you decide that typical Chaos characters might not have Logrus?
2. Why wouldn't they automatically start with both?
3. Why wouldn't you take Logrus as a character?
4. Is the assumption that a person of Chaos would have other abilities or powers, and if so what are they?

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, I just don't know what you're thinking and why, and it intrigues me.... :confused:

[RPGPundit]

Well, the typical denizen of Amber doesn't have Pattern, only the royal family does.

Likewise, the typical denizen of Chaos doesn't have Logrus, only Chaos Lords do (and only some of those); but ALL denizens of chaos have shapeshifting.

RPGPundit

[Otha]

Even among the "royal families" (which are more numerous than Amber's) I don't think most Chaosians risk the Logrus, just the best, brightest, and boldest.

[Otha]

1. What makes you decide that typical Chaos characters might not have Logrus?

It's just a general impression.  I can't point to any specific piece of evidence.

2. Why wouldn't they automatically start with both?

Because the point cost is too dire.

3. Why wouldn't you take Logrus as a character?

Because the point cost is too dire, and the benefit of having Logrus is too slim.

4. Is the assumption that a person of Chaos would have other abilities or powers, and if so what are they?

Sorcery, probably.  Shapeshift+Sorcery comes out to the same score as Pattern, and makes more sense to me for an attribute-based character in Chaos.  Shapeshift+Conjuration also makes sense.

[Volkazz]

Canon certainly indicates that all/most Chaosians have shapeshift...

Merlin series indicates most/many are sorcerors

Merlin series does not indicate that many have logrus...

Advanced shapeshift? Items of Power?

V.

[Arref]

1. What makes you decide that typical Chaos characters might not have Logrus?
2. Why wouldn't they automatically start with both?
3. Why wouldn't you take Logrus as a character?
4. Is the assumption that a person of Chaos would have other abilities or powers, and if so what are they?

Well, the typical denizen of Amber doesn't have Pattern, only the royal family does. Likewise, the typical denizen of Chaos doesn't have Logrus, only Chaos Lords do (and only some of those); but ALL denizens of chaos have shapeshifting.

Pundit pretty much sums up my thoughts, but I've tested a number of assumptions in trying to mesh Corwin's story with Merlin's story.

First there is the cultural issue: the Chaos Lords are in competition with each other, sometimes to fatal levels. As we see with Oberon, the elder Lords do not give information and advantage to the younger scions of the Houses. They make them work for everything. It is logical and cultural to think they pare down the privilege of Logrus to the very few young people they either control or are sure are the best candidates.

Would you want a bunch of semi-insane hotheads running around testing their Logrus might? The canon tells us there are skulls littering the floors of the Logrus trials. As an Elder, how many of the best and brightest of Chaos would you kill to get the few survivors?

Second, given that we are "following the adventures" of gifted people, you could assume that all Chaos PCs have Logrus, but that's hardly the most interesting or effective combination, as others above have said.

Third, when I've played Chaos PCs, I've tried both Logrus and non-Logrus persona. I have to tell you the non-Logrus PCs have been more effective, if only because the other PCs were throwing a bunch of points into something that did not "niche" their character. IOW, when everyone has an ability, it diminishes the drama.

Fourth, yes, certainly there are other abilities. You can load up on Attributes in a way that makes you good/better than amberites. You can go for Exalted shaping. You can push Sorcery to places that would make you a legend in Chaos and Amber. You can explore demonology or spikards.

In short, if you work at it you can get a leg up with an offbeat Chaosi.

You might wish to browse:
Shapeshifting: worth 35 pts?
model of Chaos @ Patternfall
How many Logrus Users?

[RPGPundit]

Yes, the second series really gives the impression that most of Oberon's worst "family" habits were actually cultural baggage from his background as a lord of Chaos.

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